Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Not to read into it too much, but one of the reasons I dislike the "Time of Trouble" timeline, is that you have a pantheon of Gods in turmoil - which is fine - but let's examine what happens:

Mystra, arguably the most powerful female god is killed by the police like authority figure. Torm, the most old school Abrahamic type god is killed, then brought back to life - resurrected if you will, by the "overgod creator". Bane, the other powerful male god that dies is resurrected, but the uppity woman stays dead.

Were the writers trying to inflict their religious and misogynist views onto this fantasy realm?

lore-wise, torm is ressurected for keeping to his portfolio. Bane took measures to bring himself back. Mystra did the same, in a way, her essence is with Midnight, Azuth and Elminster, its why magic doesnt actually die, it just goes wild.

Also, though I don't think this is the place to start a discussion about mysoginy, there was an aspect of that to the creation of D&D in general, yes. But please, preemptively, don't make it so moderators have to moderate this thread lol

DM Winter wrote: ↑Tue Jul 12, 2022 9:42 pm lore-wise, torm is ressurected for keeping to his portfolio. Bane took measures to bring himself back. Mystra did the same, in a way, her essence is with Midnight, Azuth and Elminster, its why magic doesnt actually die, it just goes wild.

Also, though I don't think this is the place to start a discussion about mysoginy, there was an aspect of that to the creation of D&D in general, yes. But please, preemptively, don't make it so moderators have to moderate this thread lol

This is general discussion, why would this be inappropriate to discuss here?

Why would it be modded?

Anyway, back on point - Writers of a fantasy universe can write whatever they want. If they want to make The Force some nano-machines in the blood of Jedi, they can do that. It's a fictional world. Now we see them having written an excuse to bring the powerful male "Jesus and Devil" allegory (please don't tell me they aren't exact allegories, I know) but leave the most powerful female god perma-dead was a choice.

They could have written it any other way.

Hmm I don't see it like that, mystra is a female god in a position of extreme power, not only that but she will be replaced by another female.
At the end of the day everything will remain sort of the same but there is no denying that mystra was given a lot of attention and development in this episode. Nothing was ever made in a way to make her look dumb or weak, it was all development and if anything a display of how smart and powerful she is.
And of course if we decide to see things outside the time of troubles and in a more general way, this only makes it even more obvious as mystra is the one deity that becomes the central figure in any major event in the entire lore.

dolorof wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:08 am Hmm I don't see it like that, mystra is a female god in a position of extreme power, not only that but she will be replaced by another female.
At the end of the day everything will remain sort of the same but there is no denying that mystra was given a lot of attention and development in this episode.
And of course if we decide to see things outside the time of troubles and in a more general way, this only makes it even more obvious as mystra is the one deity that becomes the central figure in any major event in the entire lore.

Seems like she dies off pretty much at the start, and later a new person kind of steps in after it's over... which in a narrative sense diminishes their power. Mystra becomes more like a series of stewards that inherit the great power, with old man Elminster to advise her so she doesn't do anything too silly! Meanwhile the most powerful of the male gods are resurrected in a very biblical/Abrahamic tradition, remaining as a singular constant entity.

It's okay if you like the lore, but writing is influenced by the beliefs and ideas of the writers.
Unfortunately this feels very stale and mired in worn out patriarchal tropes.

I might be wrong here, but wasn't mystra resurrected after the spellplague too?

I majorly believe the sense of story is in eyes of reader. If you see it as example of misogyny, it's your own vision, but unless you have strong proof of authors doing that exactly because of that reason, you basically accuse people with no evidence.
To me, Mystra could've been a male, Torm could've been a female (just like Athena is goddess of war, judgement in Greek mythology or Loki changing their sex for fun and mockery) with 0 change in their portfolios or story.

Trying to find things in "Oh, it's anti-woman that men gods get resurrected but woman god doesn't" feels to me like actively seeking reasons to ostracize something. I never had any issue with current lore and i' won't have have any issue if it was inverted and Mystra was the only deity resurrected as well.
Trying to invent parallels with Bible or any RL religion feels a bit weak in terms of fantasy world where most people don't have to believe in gods, they literally know gods exist and see proofs of god existence in clerics/paladins and so on. And given the fact that regeneration/resurrection is like hi-tech surgery of modern life: not for everyone, but people know it exists and they did even see other people taking such stuff once or twice in their life.

In my view, if something has godly powers, they also have godly way of thinking and question about sexes is too mundane to be applied to superhuman creatures in first place, given their current sex is often is a question of preference and not the question of their limits. Gender-changing magic exists and is available even for FR mortals, so i don't see how gods can't do same. And if they can, then male-female distinction is just a matter of taste of particular god and not definition of what they are. Mystra is female because she decided that it's more appealing to her to assume/retain her female form, but the whole "gender" question is something bleak for creatures who can assume any without much trouble.

We have a funny saying about artists and "high-culture" where people try to seek hidden sense in art, like "oh, that spoon position and color on table means that author felt shocked by X and tried to reflect their protest against Y". While author themselves just say "Sometimes spoon is just a spoon".

On contrary to your vision, i can easily just say that main source of power and main interest of Mystra is Weave and losing control over it for non-combat focused deity and being sent to very unfamiliar space can easily end in death just like you send a modern person into jungle. But, if you look from AO's view, FR losing magic is not a big deal on cosmic way of things, but FR getting into mad war cause some of protector gods are slain forever can have way bigger consequences, so they resurrect someone who is in immediate need. Speaking of Elminster, if i read lore correct, Mystra specifically aided him in getting godhood to help her doing her job better. He's her subordinate, not some "Oh, so i don't do something silly", lol.

Before you throw modern popular accusations of "misogyny, patriarchy" etc, please research the lore in depth. You have no proof that the fact two male gods got resurrected by one or other means while one female god didn't is caused by writer's chauvinism, male-dominance or similar and biblical motives are 100% your own deduced connection. And insisting on such point of view without any proofs does already feel insulting to one who's accused for it. In contrary, aside from few exceptions like that lifted rule in 1e about the fact female PCs have lower max str score, there are very few things where females are anyhow treated different to males. Even FR societies described don't show much of RL medieval male-female job separation, lack of women rights or similar, many societies treat females exactly same as males in terms of their rights. Even drow society, despite being chaotic-evil, twisted and strange, is described as expanding and growing and getting more influence through underdark and actually having leading role in Underdark life.

dolorof wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 2:08 am Hmm I don't see it like that, mystra is a female god in a position of extreme power, not only that but she will be replaced by another female.
At the end of the day everything will remain sort of the same but there is no denying that mystra was given a lot of attention and development in this episode. Nothing was ever made in a way to make her look dumb or weak, it was all development and if anything a display of how smart and powerful she is.
And of course if we decide to see things outside the time of troubles and in a more general way, this only makes it even more obvious as mystra is the one deity that becomes the central figure in any major event in the entire lore.

We need to be general. Midnight, Kelemvor, and Cyric all read like somebody's PC's.

I also sort of dislike it, somehow because of Ao. In a sense, Ao only exists to force the story to a certain direction - he has hardly any other role. This sours the lore surrounding ToT a lot for me. I would have found the lore more satisfying if there was some more organic explanation behind it, or even no explanation at all. Basically, I would have prefered if Ao was eschewed and "ToT happened because mysterious overgod did it" was reduced to "ToT happened for mysterious reasons". Or something, but then, that's just my opinion.

It was long ago when I read the ToT series and in my own opinion it was a great read for me. Hell I was barely on BG prior to it but seeing that it was near I wanted to be part of it. I dont know whats in the minds of the authors. I mean I had always felt while they wrote out their forgotten realm novels, that they created characters and probably had a d20 on the side of them and rolled for what their characters did. Cause thats what I would have done. When Mystra was punched to oblivion even I was like "Oh come on" but hey I dont know what was in his mind, never spoke with the author .

EasternCheesE wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:20 am I majorly believe the sense of story is in eyes of reader. If you see it as example of misogyny, it's your own vision, but unless you have strong proof of authors doing that exactly because of that reason, you basically accuse people with no evidence.
To me, Mystra could've been a male, Torm could've been a female (just like Athena is goddess of war, judgement in Greek mythology or Loki changing their sex for fun and mockery) with 0 change in their portfolios or story.

The intent of the author and the way the reader interprets a work can be different. However: there are also tropes, themes, and plot points that can simply be stated and analyzed for what they are. We know Tolkien's specific faith influenced some of the decisions he made in writing The Lord of the Rings, and the same goes for any work of fantasy fiction.

Demanding "evidence" is kind of beside the point. I can't get inside the author's heads and discern their inner beliefs and motives, so we only have the actual work to analyze, right? In my analysis, we see authors attempting to "course correct" and diminish the power of the top female god, while re-defining Ao as a very Abrahamic/Christian ur-creator complete with a resurrection for Torm.

Also, Athena is primarily the goddess of Wisdom, while Ares was the true war god, and let's not forget Hera - the nagging wife cast as a vindictive villain even while her husband Zeus is constantly cheating on her and being even more petty and vindictive but getting away with it because "boy deities will be boy deities" and "women be crazy"... I'm just saying as much as I love and am fascinated by the Grek pantheon (hey I have Icarus in my name!) - it was created thousands of years ago and is incredibly misogynist. Probably not the best example to support your position.

Rad-Icarus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:41 am

EasternCheesE wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:20 am I majorly believe the sense of story is in eyes of reader. If you see it as example of misogyny, it's your own vision, but unless you have strong proof of authors doing that exactly because of that reason, you basically accuse people with no evidence.
To me, Mystra could've been a male, Torm could've been a female (just like Athena is goddess of war, judgement in Greek mythology or Loki changing their sex for fun and mockery) with 0 change in their portfolios or story.

The intent of the author and the way the reader interprets a work can be different. However: there are also tropes, themes, and plot points that can simply be stated and analyzed for what they are. We know Tolkien's specific faith influenced some of the decisions he made in writing The Lord of the Rings, and the same goes for any work of fantasy fiction.

Demanding "evidence" is kind of beside the point. I can't get inside the author's heads and discern their inner beliefs and motives, so we only have the actual work to analyze, right? In my analysis, we see authors attempting to "course correct" and diminish the power of the top female god, while re-defining Ao as a very Abrahamic/Christian ur-creator complete with a resurrection for Torm.

Also, Athena is primarily the goddess of Wisdom, while Ares was the true war god, and let's not forget Hera - the nagging wife cast as a vindictive villain even while her husband Zeus is constantly cheating on her and being even more petty and vindictive but getting away with it because "boy deities will be boy deities" and "women be crazy"... I'm just saying as much as I love and am fascinated by the Grek pantheon (hey I have Icarus in my name!) - it was created thousands of years ago and is incredibly misogynist. Probably not the best example to support your position.

Athena, also spelled Athene, in Greek religion, the city protectress, goddess of war, handicraft, and practical reason, identified by the Romans with Minerva.
Athena is a valid goddess of war together with Ares/Mars.
I merely gave an example of RL mythology where woman does "non-womanly" stuff and it's considered like something okay and normal, even in these ancient times where woman rights weren't a thing in most parts of the world.
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki ... f_Troubles

Speaking of ToT, you take a single fact from the DnD lore and claim it to be patriarchic and mesogenic out of the fact female god dies while two male gods don't. It literally is you assumption which feels offensive. If someone said stuff like this about my work, i'd definitely feel it being offensive.
While, there are way more gods that died in that period of time:
1358-06-20 - Mystra, greater goddess of magic and among the most powerful of the gods, was in turn destroyed[3] when she attempted to bypass Helm at the Celestial Stairway.[6]
1358-08-13 - Bane, greater god of tyranny, strife and hatred, a member of the Dead Three, was slain on Eleasis 13 in a climactic battle with the demigod Torm in battle outside of Tantras.[3]
1358-08-13 - Torm, demigod and patron deity of paladins, was annihilated by Bane with his dying breath. He was later resurrected by Ao because he died fulfilling the obligations of his portfolio.[3]
1358-09-16 - Bhaal, intermediate god of murder, was slain by the young mortal Cyric with the sword Godsbane.[3][10] What remained of his essence was absorbed by the Winding Water.[10] However, Bhaal had foreseen his own death, and had populated Faerûn with his progeny, the Bhaalspawn, in a bid to resurrect himself.[3]
Tiamat's three-headed incarnation was slain by Gilgeam. Her essence was divided among three dragons, the red Tchazzar, the blue Gestaniius, and the green Skuthosiin. Tchazzar consumed the other two and was subsumed by Tiamat. The Dragon Queen then destroyed Gilgeam late in the Godswar.[11]
Gilgeam, demigod and king of Unther, was slain by Tiamat.[9]
Herne, a corrupted avatar of the Master of the Hunt worshiped in the High Forest, was hunted and killed by Malar who then subsumed his worship.[12]
Ibrandul, a lesser god of caverns, was destroyed by Shar, who still masquerades as the dead deity.[13] The absorption of caverns and the Underdark into Shar's portfolio has attracted the wrath of Lolth who desires dominion over these realms.[citation needed]
Moander, demigod of decay, was slain by Finder Wyvernspur.[14]
Ramman, Untheric lesser god of war and storms, was slain by Hoar[3][15] by having one of his thunderous lightning attacks repelled back at him. But before Hoar could steal his portfolio, Ramman transferred it to Anhur of the Mulhorandi pantheon.[15]
Waukeen, lesser goddess of wealth, attempted to reclaim her divinity during the Time of Troubles, leaving her portfolio in the care of Lliira, but was imprisoned in the Argent Palace, enslaved to the demon prince Graz'zt. It would be more than 10 years before she would finally be freed by adventurers, revitalizing her clergy.[16]
The dragon goddess of magic, Kereska, entirely subsumed the worship and portfolio of Kalzareinad, a demigod of dragon magic. Kalzareinad died shortly thereafter.[17]
1358-10-15 - Myrkul, greater god of the dead and another of the Dead Three, was killed in a duel with Midnight, a mortal woman wielding the powers of Mystra, in the skies over the city of Waterdeep.[18]

There is all "Men kill men, men kill women, women kill men, women kill women" in ToT lore. Even mortal woman killed a Deity during these event.
So your whole point about patriarchy and misogyny feels very narrow and only aimed to start a heated discussion on quite delicate topic even for RL trying to bring RL problems about inequality into fantasy setting.

The most powerful Faerunian god by a LARGE margin is Chauntea, she has and always remains as the #1 top dog of all the gods, so IMO the "kill off the strongest female god" point is moot cause it's not true. Mystra is just another god that dies, which is kinda her whole shtick.

The real issue of the ToT IMO is Torm's resurrection, as the reason he returns is one giant plot hole. Many other gods die from following their domains and dont get resurrected by Ao. Look at Bane, following his domain of tyranny and attempting to force his will on others caused the ToT, which in turn lead to one of the greatest times of strife in Faerun. So why wasnt he resurrected for following his portfolio? Instead he has to return by his own power and schemes (which IMO is the superior story). Torm's return needs a better story IMO that is all.

Rad-Icarus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 10:41 am

EasternCheesE wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 4:20 am Demanding "evidence" is kind of beside the point. I can't get inside the author's heads and discern their inner beliefs and motives, so we only have the actual work to analyze, right? In my analysis, we see authors attempting to "course correct" and diminish the power of the top female god, while re-defining Ao as a very Abrahamic/Christian ur-creator complete with a resurrection for Torm.

If DnD FR Lore offends you for whatever reason then perhaps this just isn't the game for you.

AsuraKing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 13, 2022 11:17 am The most powerful Faerunian god by a LARGE margin is Chauntea, she has and always remains as the #1 top dog of all the gods, so IMO the "kill off the strongest female god" point is moot cause it's not true. Mystra is just another god that dies, which is kinda her whole shtick.

The real issue of the ToT IMO is Torm's resurrection, as the reason he returns is one giant plot hole. Many other gods die from following their domains and dont get resurrected by Ao. Look at Bane, following his domain of tyranny and attempting to force his will on others caused the ToT, which in turn lead to one of the greatest times of strife in Faerun. So why wasnt he resurrected for following his portfolio? Instead he has to return by his own power and schemes (which IMO is the superior story). Torm's return needs a better story IMO that is all.

You got that right. Hell, the whole argument for the ToT is that the gods kinda ignore their portfolio, right? In answer to Bane stealing the Tablets of Fate to gather more power. That's 100% something the god of Tyranny would do, he's the embodiment of ambition and oppressiong trying to gather more power.