Skills Spread Too Thin?

[Tekill]

I do not have much of a context of how many skill points I should dump into the various skills. What is the minimum amount to apply to a skill for that skill to be useful a good amount of the time?

And there are so many options now:
There are the class required skills.
There are the new skills recently added.
There are old standards like umd acrobatics and spellcraft for the min/maxer in me.
Social skills
Skills for teleporting
Skills for dm events and/or RP.
intimidate/parry/feint

What is the minimum amount of skills to put into Disable device and open lock for them to work a majority of the time?
Will a total skill check of 20-25 be okay, or not worth it?
I have lockpicks and I dont mind a trap blowing up in my face but I would like to get them more often than not.

Its nice that i can put only 10 points into Search and still end up having a total max bonus of 25. But does this mean the checks are going to be just that much higher too, now that we are getting a lot of extra skill bonuses?

With Gather Information and Sense motive working so well together should I split the points and put 10-15 in each? would a mere +15 total to the skill check even be worth it?
If I roll a 20 that's a 35....is that good?
Does trying to invest in both skills ruin my chances for a successful check with either?

I can jump like 20 feet with just 12 points in Athletics. Is this fine or will I drown the next time I try swimming?

Mo'skill points, mo'problems!

[Rhifox]

I do not have much of a context of how many skill points I should dump into the various skills. What is the minimum amount to apply to a skill for that skill to be useful a good amount of the time?

For mechanical skills, it's still generally all about quantity.

For RP skills, generally 1-5 or 1-10 is a novice, 5-15 or 10-15 ish is skilled, 15-20 or 15-25 is an expert, 21/25+ is a master.

What is the minimum amount of skills to put into Disable device and open lock for them to work a majority of the time?
Will a total skill check of 20-25 be okay, or not worth it?

5-10 ranks in Open Lock plus Open Lock gear opens the majority of locks on the server. There's a few dumb ones you can't do but those ones are just novelties as far as I know, with nothing really important behind them.

Its nice that i can put only 10 points into Search and still end up having a total max bonus of 25. But does this mean the checks are going to be just that much higher too, now that we are getting a lot of extra skill bonuses?

No, checks aren't going to be higher. On the contrary, with more skills and the necessity for spreading points out more, it should hopefully bring server culture back to a level where people don't think they need full 33 points (with another 30+ in bonus modifiers) to use the skill effectively.

With Gather Information and Sense motive working so well together should I split the points and put 10-15 in each? would a mere +15 total to the skill check even be worth it?

The idea people think +15 is a "mere" amount is a problem with the server's mentality. 15 is straight up an expert. Maybe not a full flung master, but very skilled at it.

Does trying to invest in both skills ruin my chances for a successful check with either?

No. Personally I run with 10 ranks in Sense Motive, which I consider quite good for the skill. You won't be reading people who have maxed out in Bluff in opposed skill checks, but with decent modifiers you get a good chance of sussing social situations in DM encounters out.

I can jump like 20 feet with just 12 points in Athletics. Is this fine or will I drown the next time I try swimming?

12 is perfectly fine for swimming. Heck, for swimming you only really need to make a check at all when it's an encounter (as in, just normal swimming doesn't require a check. Swimming for long periods, or in bad weather, or during combat, on the other hand, does).

[Tekill]

Very helpful Rhifox -Thanks!

[Hullack]

Very helpful Rhifox -Thanks!

Agreed very helpful. My only minor squabble would be sense motive now seems to be in a similar arms-race mechanics wise with Bluff that spot/hide & listen/MS enjoy due to feint and the 'distraction+hide' mechanics that kind of demands skill point maxing to counter.

[Lockonnow]

There 2 way to play this game one is with skills but is more a dm thing and that is what it is about you get the feelings of some great and powerfull storys and the other one is boring but fun to what is to find o nteh server

[ValerieJean]

Very helpful Rhifox -Thanks!

Agreed very helpful. My only minor squabble would be sense motive now seems to be in a similar arms-race mechanics wise with Bluff that spot/hide & listen/MS enjoy due to feint and the 'distraction+hide' mechanics that kind of demands skill point maxing to counter.

+1

[JustAnotherGuy]

In my opinion, there are two different classes of skills.

1. PvE skills
2. PvP skills

There is some crossover on some of them. But basically, they boil down to "Skills you absolutely have to max out to be any good with" and "Skills you can actually RP"

For the RP skills, along the lines of what Rhifox posted, if we take into account that most commoners are, at most, level 5, that means that they can only get 8 skill points into anything they put max skills into. Add a "background feat", and we get them up to 10. So the common blacksmith who is a master at his craft only has about 10 points in blacksmithing. And he is able to craft nearly anything required.

Same thing with your average loremasters, bards, entertainers, politicians, etc, etc.

So, to me, if you have 10+ points in something, you are very proficient in it. If you have 15+ that's a mastery.

However, then we get into PvP skills. Hide/MS v Spot/Listen. Bluff v Sense Motive. Intimidate v (CL+WIS Mod+Fear Save).

For these to be of any use amongst PCs, they pretty much have to be maxed out as much as possible. I don't have any clue how to change that, and I'm not sure that it can be changed. It just is.

But because of these PVP skills, we've also gotten into the mindset that "If I don't have 60+ in lore arcana (or insert any other knowledge skill) then my character doesn't know anything." And in the past, this has been backed up by DMs who have required DCs of 50, 60, or even 70 to figure something out. But with all these new skills, and no extra skillpoints to spend on them, hopefully we see a player/DM mentality shift. "Oh, you have a 15 in Lore Religion? You really know your stuff."

Essentially, I agree with what I was told in a conversation by staff back at the beginning of the month. I asked (as many did/do), "With all these new skills, will be getting extra skillpoints to compensate?" And their response was, "No. We're finally getting enough skills to match the crazy amount of skill points the PCs get."

[selhan]

Generally 1-5 or 1-10 is a novice, 5-15 or 10-15 ish is skilled, 15-20 or 15-25 is an expert, 21/25+ is a master, 30-33 is Legendary,



A GOD.

[Xorena]

For these to be of any use amongst PCs, they pretty much have to be maxed out as much as possible. I don't have any clue how to change that, and I'm not sure that it can be changed. It just is.

Easy, level cap of 10 to 15.

But with all these new skills, and no extra skillpoints to spend on them, hopefully we see a player/DM mentality shift. "Oh, you have a 15 in Lore Religion? You really know your stuff."

One can dream.

[selhan]

I tried a power build, and when it came to pve stuff , cakewalk
When it came to pvp, moonwalk
When it came to DM events, utter embarrassment.

I tried RP build, when it came to pve, the struggle was real
When it came to pvp, pitiful
When it came to DM events, Reigned supreme.

I tried balance, in pve, workable.
In pvp, preparation was key.
When it came to DM events, felt like a Wheel of Fortune game!

Keep it simple, it not complicated.

And remember, you only HAVE to roll for a DM and game mechanics . I dont HAVE to roll diddly squat for another player, if I WANT I may roll to help support the RP with another player. I can walk about with 0 Bluff and I will still lie in peoples face. Just like how people have -8 Cha and tell everybody they handsome or pretty and gods gift to the crowds.

[JustAnotherGuy]

For these to be of any use amongst PCs, they pretty much have to be maxed out as much as possible. I don't have any clue how to change that, and I'm not sure that it can be changed. It just is.

Easy, level cap of 10 to 15.

Thing is, that doesn't solve anything. It would just change the level at which they have to be maxed out. They'd still have to be maxed out.

[JustAnotherGuy]

And remember, you only HAVE to roll for a DM and game mechanics . I dont HAVE to roll diddly squat for another player, if I WANT I may roll to help support the RP with another player.

This is technically true, yes. But sometimes RP is enhanced by the rolls. Sometimes it is enhanced by a lack of rolls. Sometimes, especially in a more "friendly" setting, allowing the rolls to determine whether a PC discovers a lie is an amazing way to go. And others, not having the OOC cue of a roll is more exciting.

The only opposed roll that -has- to be rolled, as you said, is "Game Mechanics". For instance, if someone is in stealth. But the spot/listen rolls are rolled automatically and are hidden. I'm just glad that now when people like Sel come around and my spotter sees them, I'll be able to tell they're in stealth. Before, when I spotted someone, I never knew they were in stealth, lol.

[selhan]

The only opposed roll that -has- to be rolled, as you said, is "Game Mechanics". For instance, if someone is in stealth. But the spot/listen rolls are rolled automatically and are hidden. I'm just glad that now when people like Sel come around and my spotter sees them, I'll be able to tell they're in stealth. Before, when I spotted someone, I never knew they were in stealth, lol.

Lol dont let that roll fool you, that not even on this server

Oh yeah that icon on ppls heads when they stealth, that thing looks funny.

[Tekill]

Even in non dm events, just RPing with other players I will roll checks to to see if my character can actually do what he/she wants to accomplish. I just try to pick a DC to beat on my own. Can they be diplomatic when they need to be, can they get away with a lie, or can they understand what the other players are talking about (lore)?
It can be funny finding yourself in a situation where you need to use a skill when you have no points in it -my toons are often terrible liars for example.
Failing a check can be just as fun as passing it. So I am not hellbent to make sure I am a master at everything. But I do not want to be a bumbler either. Basically I want my character to be competent in what profession or tasks he wants to focus on.

I think with the character I am working on, has a lot of duties and is spread a bit thin in general, being part of this RP/style. He has a lot of skills but is not a specialist or a master most of them. So a jack of all trades master of none fits him well.

So if 10-15 ish is skilled and 15-20 or 15-25 is an expert than I should be okay with balancing out my skills.

If I needed to be a specialist or master at a certain thing such as an appraiser, an investigator, a crafter, a scholar, etc.
Then I would simply need to take less skills and focus on the ones I want to master.

So it seems to balance out pretty good.

One thing I see as being a tiny bit off is the requirement for spellcraft for epic spells, especially for divine casters. We are required to almost max the skill in order to be able to pick an epic feat. So in order for my cleric to be able to cast epic mass heal, I need to know pretty much everything there is to know about all spells. I can understand this requirement for arcane casters I suppose, as they have to research and invent the spell. But a cleric is basically just praying for the epic heal.
Why does my cleric have a spellcraft skill of 25 (other than to have epic mass heal) when his other skills that he will actually be using are around 15-20.
Its not the end of the world - I guess you could say the cleric must research the epic heal prayer, and also, with the passive bonus to spellcraft to ones saves I will not gripe too much about this. But one feat and 25-30 skill points is still a heavy investment.

[Kitunenotsume]

One thing I see as being a tiny bit off is the requirement for spellcraft for epic spells, especially for divine casters. We are required to almost max the skill in order to be able to pick an epic feat. So in order for my cleric to be able to cast epic mass heal, I need to know pretty much everything there is to know about all spells. I can understand this requirement for arcane casters I suppose, as they have to research and invent the spell. But a cleric is basically just praying for the epic heal.
Why does my cleric have a spellcraft skill of 25 (other than to have epic mass heal) when his other skills that he will actually be using are around 15-20.
Its not the end of the world - I guess you could say the cleric must research the epic heal prayer, and also, with the passive bonus to spellcraft to ones saves I will not gripe too much about this. But one feat and 25-30 skill points is still a heavy investment.

It is worth noting that Epic Spells are a rather unusual situation.
Using Hellball as the example, P&P requirements are for a DC 90 Spellcraft check to develop the spell (along with 810,000 gp; 17 days; and 32,400 XP).

The ability to take it with just a Spellcraft of 30 and one feat is a substantial reduction compared to the standard DCs applied to Epic Level Handbook content. Simply because you are a cleric does not absolve you of the need to develop an epic spell, as epic-spells do not follow the same rules for acquisition as those provided from spell-slots (And after the Fall of Nethril, no-one has 10th or above spell-slots).

Epic Heal does not exist in P&P, but based on the Heal Seed, I come to the following calculation:
Base DC 25 (Heal seed) + 20 (1-action cast time) + 10 (Touch to area, 20ft radius) +4 (Increase area by 100%) = total development DC of 59.


However, as with effectively all content pulled from the Epic-Level Handbook, using any material from the book is an exercise in surpassing the limits of physics and playing in the realm of mortal demigods - which is a bit beyond just "being good at it".