Divine Shield, and shield requirement

[Kitunenotsume]

During a discord discussion, I was broached to look at Divine Shield, due to a concern on Dodge-capping.

From what I can see, it appears substantially stronger than P&P, as it 1) does not rely on a shield, and 2) is a Dodge bonus rather than a Shield-Enhancement bonus.

Per P&P, it is a feat that allows expending a turning attempt to improve an existing shield, similar but potentially more powerful than Magic Vestment targeting a shield, and making it more potent for defence and shield-bashing.
https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/comple ... ield--666/

However, the NWN2 implementation requires no shield use at all, and is a Dodge bonus, which while it stacks with many things, it also imposes a restriction where characters can hit the +20 Dodge cap. It also makes the feat usable by two-hand weapon characters, which seems slightly outside the initial scope.
https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Divine_Shield

Given recent discussions, it sounds like it would be reasonable while reworking AC bonus sources, to reconfigure the ability to apply the proper bonus to a Shield-bonus, either as a Base-bonus (if Dae is confident, permitting stacking with Magic Vestment and +X shields), or as an Enhancement bonus (which would be a fairly significant potency reduction, but make it very useful for paladins to buff otherwise mundane shields).


[As with Tumble, this would likely be ill-advised to consider implementation prior to any updates to PvE]

[AgentOrange]

Let's let dippers, 2h builds, and dual wielders keep nice things. Divine Shield applying charisma bonus to AC is just fine. The more heavily you invest in charisma, the more bang for your buck.

I agree with removing the Dodge AC component, or getting rid of that annoying cap.

[Bobthehero]

Pulling the rug from under people that use Divine Shield to bridge the gap AC wise when needed by making it restricted to a shield sure is a nice move, yep yep, totally a good idea.

[Steve]

1) it has quite the limited duration.
2) Divine Shield sources from the same pool as Divine Might, thus far from unlimited use, and a Player must be conscious of Use use.

Does it really need a nerf?

[Theodore01]

and do crusaders really need another nerf?

[JIŘÍ]

Imagine if it just improved enhancement of the shield.

From plus 4 to plus 6 or plus 7.

Lol it would be even more worthless unless duration would be least double.

[ValerieJean]

1) it has quite the limited duration.
2) Divine Shield sources from the same pool as Divine Might, thus far from unlimited use, and a Player must be conscious of Use use.

Does it really need a nerf?

+1

[mrm3ntalist]

Yikes, the divine shield needs fixing?

and do crusaders really need another nerf?

Who cares, it is not like they are monks...

[AgentOrange]

Yikes, the divine shield needs fixing?

It does not. The original suggestion about Divine Shield applying only to a physical shield is bad.

The type of AC it applies needs looking at, or the Dodge AC cap removed.

[artemitavik]

It would probably be more beneficial for Divine Shield if the dodge cap was removed. If it became another AC type then it would overwrite (like shield ac), not stack, and thus would become far less potent with those with said shields as they would only get the highest, not both.

[JIŘÍ]

The dodge and ab caps are in the game for some reason.

Now a single prestige class itself can reach +15 dodge AC bonus if I am not mistaken in fighting defensively.

Numbers need to be toned down for d20 roll to play a role not being steadily upped upped and upped.

[zhazz]

Rather than removing the dodge cap, I think it's better to change the AC type of Divine Shield from dodge to sacred.
An argument could be made for making it untyped, but considering its source is divine, I'd say sacred makes more sense.

Doing it this way will make it stack with regular shield AC too (enhancement).

I don't see a need to limit Divine Shield to only be castable on actual shields, as several builds rely on it to have respectable AC.
Though the option of it adding bonus damage to Shield Bash is an interesting one.

[RedLancer]

Given recent discussions, it sounds like it would be reasonable while reworking AC bonus sources, to reconfigure the ability to apply the proper bonus to a Shield-bonus, either as a Base-bonus (if Dae is confident, permitting stacking with Magic Vestment and +X shields), or as an Enhancement bonus (which would be a fairly significant potency reduction, but make it very useful for paladins to buff otherwise mundane shields).

I don't see any point in making Divine Shield redundant with Magic Vestment / Shield of Warding and/or penalizing two-handed builds. Changing the AC type of Divine Shield away from Dodge would also significantly raise the AC ceiling for such builds; I'm not sure that's a good idea.

The only change that should be considered for Divine Shield (and Divine Might) is changing it to a Free Action. They're currently cumbersome to use dynamically, especially in a group context where combat initiates and and transitions at a much faster pace.

[ValerieJean]

Given recent discussions, it sounds like it would be reasonable while reworking AC bonus sources, to reconfigure the ability to apply the proper bonus to a Shield-bonus, either as a Base-bonus (if Dae is confident, permitting stacking with Magic Vestment and +X shields), or as an Enhancement bonus (which would be a fairly significant potency reduction, but make it very useful for paladins to buff otherwise mundane shields).

I don't see any point in making Divine Shield redundant with Magic Vestment / Shield of Warding and/or penalizing two-handed builds. Changing the AC type of Divine Shield away from Dodge would also significantly raise the AC ceiling for such builds; I'm not sure that's a good idea.

The only change that should be considered for Divine Shield (and Divine Might) is changing it to a Free Action. They're currently cumbersome to use dynamically, especially in a group context where combat initiates and and transitions at a much faster pace.

+1

[zhazz]

Given recent discussions, it sounds like it would be reasonable while reworking AC bonus sources, to reconfigure the ability to apply the proper bonus to a Shield-bonus, either as a Base-bonus (if Dae is confident, permitting stacking with Magic Vestment and +X shields), or as an Enhancement bonus (which would be a fairly significant potency reduction, but make it very useful for paladins to buff otherwise mundane shields).

The only change that should be considered for Divine Shield (and Divine Might) is changing it to a Free Action. They're currently cumbersome to use dynamically, especially in a group context where combat initiates and and transitions at a much faster pace.

If we start going down this rabbit hole, then most feats granting an on-use ability designed primarily for combat should become Free Actions too for the same reason. While I do think such is a good quality of life upgrade, I can also see it making several already powerful builds/classes even more powerful.

It's a can of worms I think we need to be careful about opening.