Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Since the new leadership now has the aim of bridging the gap between PnP and the BG module, which is, generally speaking, a good aim, I suggest removing the requirement of the feat true believer from the Shadow Adept PrC. Not only is it not true to PnP lore, but it is also arguably too heavy a cost to pay for class abilities which are nice and flavourful but not powerful at all. Plus, the class already comes with its own penalties in the form of nerfed non-shadow weave spells.

Shadow Adept is one of the most powerful PRCs and this requirement is part of balancing it (not really successfully, as it's still the go-to meta for basically any DC caster).

That being said, once ToT is past, we have been considering its pnp requirement instead: Shadow Weave Magic feat instead of True Believer, which requires either worshipping Shar or having Wisdom 13+ and taking a permanent -2 reduction in Wisdom upon taking the feat.

Any class or feat that is based on improving DCs is, quite frankly, garbage due to how BGtSCC is balanced, especially at epic levels, and people who build their characters that way are either concerned with flavour over ultimate powerbuilding or don't know any better. For ten levels, you get +3 DC in three schools, -2 in the rest, an extra use of Wand of Displacement which does not spend the charge, and a teleporting ability that works 30% of the time. It's one of the best classes flavour-wise, but rubbish in BG's meta.

Shadow Adept was powerful when it was Application Only. For Role-play purposes.

Cosmic is right: DC builds are powerful, but incredibly limited, to like...2-3 blast, then they are subject to a Rest Timer. Which means—in the meta of building and how Players interact with this Server—is crap.

That said: if being a Shadow Adept, in principle of RP, could be demonstrated to be powerful—as in, give me an example where a Shadow Adept did something EPIC to influence the Sand Box—then it's pretty easy to drop the idea of "balancing of mechanics."

I think requiring Shadow Weave Magic feat is a great solution. The only issue is that you can be a Shadow Adept Cleric, and thus the -2 WIS is a very heavy penalty.

Steve wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:08 pm Shadow Adept was powerful when it was Application Only. For Role-play purposes.

Cosmic is right: DC builds are powerful, but incredibly limited, to like...2-3 blast, then they are subject to a Rest Timer. Which means—in the meta of building and how Players interact with this Server—is crap.

That said: if being a Shadow Adept, in principle of RP, could be demonstrated to be powerful—as in, give me an example where a Shadow Adept did something EPIC to influence the Sand Box—then it's pretty easy to drop the idea of "balancing of mechanics."

I think requiring Shadow Weave Magic feat is a great solution. The only issue is that you can be a Shadow Adept Cleric, and thus the -2 WIS is a very heavy penalty.

You only get that penalty if you're trying to be a Shadow Adept without worshiping Shar. A Shar cleric wouldn't have that penalty. And if one isn't worshiping Shar, well, that's the price of admission (and also an expansion on who can actually take the class compared to currently).

I thought Shar wanted people to use the shadow weave as a means of gaining power/subverting Mystra. Cursing them seems like a weird way to do that, but is pretty on-brand.

What about aligned deities? Vhaeraun or Mask for instance?

Interestingly, the one type of magic that the Protector considered too corrupt for elves and thus suitable for drow, the usage of the Shadow Weave, was the niche Vhaeraun filled in his role as the patron of shadow magic.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Vhaeraun

I would support Vhaeraun being added for that very strongly.

I'm inclined to disagree on the DC commentary, and this wasn't a difficult to reach plateau whilst serving utility (skills) as the primary focus; you can gain 6 more DC with an optimized build for it. Paired with ~90 spell slots and meta shuffle this trivialized nearly all PvE content. A feat in replacement is more than acceptable, I'd argue even two might be needed for the kind of output you can achieve even on a PvE event level, such as one background requirement. The feats it offers is synergetic in a multitude of ways beyond an engine of free movement, but more importantly the RP made available through the skills it offers the player that with certain adjustments and backgrounds also holds new PvE/PvP benefit. There's a lot that the class offers that seems to be slept on based on what's read here.

if being a Shadow Adept, in principle of RP, could be demonstrated to be powerful—as in, give me an example where a Shadow Adept did something EPIC to influence the Sand Box

Triel, Anthem, the past two years all comes immediately to mind where publicly known SA activity has been heavy influencers. Sharrans were instrumental in the Devil War.

Original Unedits.

Hullack wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 6:31 pm I thought Shar wanted people to use the shadow weave as a means of gaining power/subverting Mystra. Cursing them seems like a weird way to do that, but is pretty on-brand.

What about aligned deities? Vhaeraun or Mask for instance?

Quite the opposite, it's considered a great secret of hers and Sharran faithful actively hunt down and murder anyone that uses it without worshiping her, it's like the single greatest offense to her faith. The only exception being Vhaerunites who she lets use it.

Shadow weave well should be a secret even on server, for now with IC perspective common knowledge of it its.. terrible. Same with open speak about it by characters or about shar.

About DC, i do not agree with AoS. Maybe in some few rare builds, sure you can try to max, but in normal not PB (specific one school) DC its terrible, same on items, wands. Solution for this can be well two. Decreace and lower Saves for all spawn / removing Saves from spellcraft and items with large numbers to + saves OR Incerace base DC what characters have from ex. 10 to 15 or 20.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:36 pm]

You only get that penalty if you're trying to be a Shadow Adept without worshiping Shar. A Shar cleric wouldn't have that penalty. And if one isn't worshiping Shar, well, that's the price of admission (and also an expansion on who can actually take the class compared to currently).

You’re right!

You can, however, strike a deal with Shar, the goddess who holds sway over the Shadow Weave, to regain your lost Wisdom. You must receive an atonement spell from a cleric of Shar. Sharran clerics require the subject to complete a dangerous quest before receiving the atonement, and afterward you must choose her as your patron. (The usual quest is to destroy a follower of Selűne whose level is at least as high as yours.)

I hope that the DMs can accommodate this “quest” for each Shadow Adept PC.

Steve wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:02 am

Rhifox wrote: ↑Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:36 pm]

You only get that penalty if you're trying to be a Shadow Adept without worshiping Shar. A Shar cleric wouldn't have that penalty. And if one isn't worshiping Shar, well, that's the price of admission (and also an expansion on who can actually take the class compared to currently).

You’re right!

You can, however, strike a deal with Shar, the goddess who holds sway over the Shadow Weave, to regain your lost Wisdom. You must receive an atonement spell from a cleric of Shar. Sharran clerics require the subject to complete a dangerous quest before receiving the atonement, and afterward you must choose her as your patron. (The usual quest is to destroy a follower of Selűne whose level is at least as high as yours.)

I hope that the DMs can accommodate this “quest” for each Shadow Adept PC.

We have considered making SA application-only again, due to its heavy RP requirements and large power, and how many people take it without RPing it.

On the discussion talking about it not being powerful... Shar is the most common deity on the server and SA one of if not the most popular mage PRCs, despite its heavy lore and that its users should be very rare (especially in this time period). It is widely seen as the most powerful mage PRC. The meta mage builds are some kind of combination of Wizard/Archmage/Blood Mage/Shadow Adept, with RW sometimes standing in for either ACM or BM instead. It is by no means a weak class.

Lore wise the server diverges some. The proliferation of Sharran iconography accelerated in the past couple of years, materials appearing for a multitude of reasons; decryption of these contents yield one reason, investigation yielded others. Some followers of Shar were also tailed in investigation while others did the heinous open-air declaration so quite a few players have taken up to regurgitating source material rather than what their character should truly know, a runaway train started years ago.

The increase of base DC would require remediating more to accommodate than the reductivism option; if 46 is obtainable now, and 51/56 becomes plated, you'll have an influx of power-only types wanting to flaunt that broken DC on combat logs more than what I showed above from my own character. It's better to balance the PvE with a save scale-down of 3 points and no save from spellcraft, while still keeping feat requisite that should probably be two to match other similar DC pump PrCs.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:16 am We have considered making SA application-only again, due to its heavy RP requirements and large power, and how many people take it without RPing it.

Historically application reviews for classes haven't been consistent, and I wonder the same even today after a time being implemented. Alternatively, DMs considering applications from other characters for followers of Shar being found and put to permanent death would lighten the potential load incurred while insisting the critical necessities revolving around class lore. This includes potential permanent death requests by other followers of Shar for those misbehaving within the faith, letting them self manage with reward to do so.

Aspect of Sorrow wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:40 am

Rhifox wrote: ↑Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:16 am We have considered making SA application-only again, due to its heavy RP requirements and large power, and how many people take it without RPing it.

Historic application reviews for classes haven't been consistent, and I wonder the same even today after a time being implemented.

This is why it wouldn't be a broad restarting of applications and more an exception for this specific class.

That being said, as with post ToT we're getting into the era where the Shadow Weave starts getting used by more people than just Sharrans, it's probably not needed anymore. Hence the Shadow Weave feat instead.