Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

There's currently no skill background that grants Use Magic Device. I have a cool idea for one:


Spellborn
You carry magic in your veins. Whether through exposure to powerful magic or an ancestor of magical origin, you have a natural ability to understand magic. You gain Spellcraft and Use Magic Device as class skills.


Speaking of UMD as a class skill, shouldn't wizards and sorcerers have it?

There are already backgrounds made that grant Spellcraft and UMD. They're just disabled due to the current power of these skills (UMD in particular). If they are ever added, it would only be after changes to the power of these skills.

And Wizards and Sorcerers already have the ability to use magical devices: They can freely use any magical device that involves the use of a spell from their spellbook. But they are no more trained in the use of non-class magical abilities than any non-mage is. Wizards do not study divine magic, and so don't know how to use divine magical items (likewise, a specialist wizard does not study their prohibited school, thus requiring they use UMD to use spells from their prohibited school). Classes that get UMD are, in general, classes whose themes involve trickery and cunning, finding loopholes to get things they shouldn't normally be able to get.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:28 amClasses that get UMD are, in general, classes whose themes involve trickery and cunning

The Wiki wrote:Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception.

So shouldn't shadowdancer get UMD?

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:34 pm

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:28 amClasses that get UMD are, in general, classes whose themes involve trickery and cunning

The Wiki wrote:Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception.

So shouldn't shadowdancer get UMD?

In my opinion, not necessarily. Shadow dancer, while deceptive, does not necessarily rely on improvisation like a rogue. They focus on dexterity and staying unseen. Warlocks don't necessarily focus on improvisation either, but I guess they are used to dealing with all sorts of eldritch things, so they know how to work with what they don't fully understand (?).

Anyway, I think that UMD is a bit weird power-wise in a persistent world because magical items are so plentiful. I don't know if the original idea is that adventurers walk around with dozens of wands and scrolls all the time (though of course it depends on the character and many builds probably need them for mechanical reasons). I guess, e.g. for rogue, the general idea behind UMD access is that rogues have learned various tricks during their travels, and therefore kind of know how to improvise if they happen to find magical items, or they might carry a few useful ones that they have grown to rely on. Or something.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClas ... dancer.htm

Evidently not.

whatever123 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:40 amAnyway, I think that UMD is a bit weird power-wise in a persistent world because magical items are so plentiful. I don't know if the original idea is that adventurers walk around with dozens of wands and scrolls all the time

The original idea is that most adventurers are far below level 20, indeed even below 10. So UMD skill is significantly lower.

And crafting of magical items usually is expensive, even involving XP cost. So again, the original idea is lower accessbility.

whatever123 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:40 am

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:34 pm

Rhifox wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:28 amClasses that get UMD are, in general, classes whose themes involve trickery and cunning

The Wiki wrote:Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception.

So shouldn't shadowdancer get UMD?

In my opinion, not necessarily. Shadow dancer, while deceptive, does not necessarily rely on improvisation like a rogue. They focus on dexterity and staying unseen. Warlocks don't necessarily focus on improvisation either, but I guess they are used to dealing with all sorts of eldritch things, so they know how to work with what they don't fully understand (?).

Anyway, I think that UMD is a bit weird power-wise in a persistent world because magical items are so plentiful. I don't know if the original idea is that adventurers walk around with dozens of wands and scrolls all the time (though of course it depends on the character and many builds probably need them for mechanical reasons). I guess, e.g. for rogue, the general idea behind UMD access is that rogues have learned various tricks during their travels, and therefore kind of know how to improvise if they happen to find magical items, or they might carry a few useful ones that they have grown to rely on. Or something.

It's about WAY more than scrolls and wands. It's about wearable gear. Just look at the best stealth items: Ninja Robe of Stars, Ninja Hood, and Ninja Boots. All are useable only by Assassin or UMD, so if you want a ranger/shadowdancer you're out of luck. IMO equipment should NOT have class requirements to equip it. What, do the boots have extra complicated password-operated buckles that can only be operated by someone familiar with the assassin code language to open? Or maybe the boots are sentient and will refuse to go on certain feet? It's dumb.

One thing I do agree with in terms of how UMD is implemented on the server is the somewhat stringent class requirements for certain pieces of epic gear. It pushes people to either rouge dip (which also has other benefits like evasion so I’m not saying it’s the only reason) or cross class the skill.

Either way it helps foster the tension between too much reliance on UMD and needing umd for certain builds to effectively gear out.

I’m just thinking out loud about a culture that goes back to the early days of the server. Not criticizing anyone in particular. Realistically I think the best solution to the issue would be crafting.

Excluding that maybe instead of say removing the class restrictions on ninja gear maybe adding equally effective pieces geared towards other classes could be looked into.

Edit: just to add the obligatory, I am not a dev, this is not my purview, just throwing out a personal opinion.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:00 pm One thing I do agree with in terms of how UMD is implemented on the server is the somewhat stringent class requirements for certain pieces of epic gear. It pushes people to either rouge dip (which also has other benefits like evasion so I’m not saying it’s the only reason) or cross class the skill.

Either way it helps foster the tension between too much reliance on UMD and needing umd for certain builds to effectively gear out.

I’m just thinking out loud about a culture that goes back to the early days of the server. Not criticizing anyone in particular. Realistically I think the best solution to the issue would be crafting.

Excluding that maybe instead of say removing the class restrictions on ninja gear maybe adding equally effective pieces geared towards other classes could be looked into.

Edit: just to add the obligatory, I am not a dev, this is not my purview, just throwing out a personal opinion.

Yeah, I think equippable gear should have no class restrictions at all. Class restrictions make no IC sense. Alignment restrictions only make sense in the case of items blessed/cursed by specific deities for specific purpose.

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:00 pm Either way it helps foster the tension between too much reliance on UMD and needing umd for certain builds to effectively gear out.

also doesnt help that compared to back in the day when non magic users had areas they could go to grind and level because they were fairly easy and thus only generating a dependence on not leaving without a bunch of healer kits; areas have long since gotten to the point of such a difficultly that if you do not have either UMD or a crap ton of potions then there is no reason for you to be there because you just gonna die

bosses are just as bad, some bosses use to be able to be killed by a group of rogues, those days are long gone too

the only thing that would have allowed one to avoid dependence on UMD would have been if they ever actually implemented crafting but the general consensus people have, for whatever reason, has always been to try to make it so you couldnt tweak out a character... which is really the exact purpose of crafting in the first place, but having good custom magical items for a particular characters strengths/weaknesses would negate UMD to the point where it would be optional and not necessary to actually play non magic classes

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:46 pm Yeah, I think equippable gear should have no class restrictions at all. Class restrictions make no IC sense. Alignment restrictions only make sense in the case of items blessed/cursed by specific deities for specific purpose.

except magical items can be restricted by whoever makes it and need no reason, but removing them also removes one of the basic needs of UMD so may not be overly bad since the majority only take enough UMD for wands and item emulation anyway