Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 11:34 am**

I'll preface this post up front with this: I am playing a Shadow Adept. This likely makes me biased towards Shadow Walk, as I use it a lot for RP reasons.

Can we talk about Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk? It's a horrible design to have the spell fail so often! No one cares about the damage it deals, since healing is so cheap via pots or healing kits (assuming you don't have the mandatory cloak of regeneration), so it's literally just about wasting time and spell slots or scrolls. Again, I don't think many of our player base struggle with money to buy scrolls. We do have the majority of UMD use Teleport left and right.

Shadow Walk and Mirror walk are simply inferior to Teleport. And not in any regard that limits their use or makes them different from Teleport. They are just designed to annoy the user, it feels.

And so, no one besides Shadow Adept uses the Shadow Walk and only those who aren't able to use Teleport, like some clerics, would rather use Mirror Walk. But what is the point in punishing those characters/players with such a high failure rate? What would be so bad about having those spells work out as well as Teleport does? They are of a higher circle and not available to everyone. People already despise you for using Shadow Walk (Uses Shadow Walk? Must be Shadow Adept! Who else would bother with this spell?) and albeit it looks cool with that shadow VFX, the penalty of looking like a complete baboon when being ported a few feet rather than to another location is enough to have me consider using Teleport instead of Shadow Walk simply because it's easier to use. Again, no one cares about the money. In fact, I know most Shadow Adepts end up using Teleport anyway, because it's less conspicuous and the 850 gold is not even noticeable.

Can we talk about what this design serves? I think many would agree, it serves only to irritate the casters and push them to use the same spell as everyone else. Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk are badly designed. Let's change it. Let's make them cool and fun to use.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 6:47 pm**

The lore behind SW/MW is that you are moving through space that is hostile to you, moreso hostile than much of the plane you currently inhabit. The failure rates reflect attempts to flee from dangers there, to offset the high problematic space the balance decision was to remove cost as to not wipe out player coffers. You can choose to ignore it as it shuffles you around but it dilutes what is going on in favor of your comfort and convenience, to which being an adept doesn't offer free ticket from struggle. If the cost means nothing simply resort to using teleport. Shadow walk isn't inherently an evil act and can be performed out of the circle 6 pages of an arcanist, it's just so abused by just SA that players are often OOCly exercising their concerns based on their understanding of the sheet than IC ones.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:20 pm**

In the end, the design is a high chance of failure and that is annoying. I think that there could be more to a spell than choosing to resort to a different one, designed better, as Teleport is.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:27 pm**

Yes, well, at the time of implementation I suppose I could have set it to where the caster is exhausting their spellbook trying to survive through a temporary area transition over a minor inconvenience to better reflect the spell's function.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 7:37 pm**

The failure rate is meant to reflect the difficulty in travelling through those individual planes to locate the area your character intends to travel. It is a minor inconvenience versus the monetary cost of teleport for more instant gratification. I think the flavor works well to theme; if you consider the acts your character are actually doing. Many failures have their own flavor and reason behind them which was clearly carefully cultivated to lean into this theme within the limits of the game engine.

Teleport exists. Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk alternatives are different methods of travel that -should- feel like their own, difficult journeys. Not a darkness based teleport clone. I prefer it as is.

Posted: **Wed Dec 14, 2022 8:41 pm**

The price is the same. The only differences are spell slot level and how difficult it is to use. It's not like it's interactive and therefore fun. It just fails a lot. Where's the fun in that? What's so good about it? I just don't get it.

It just strikes me that Teleport is far superior in all ways, leaving Shadow Walk to be used only by Shadow Adepts, because they save some money and don't have to prepare a slot for it (also, the cooldown negates the failure a bit) while Mirror Walk doesn't see any use.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 4:07 am**

Soooo a few clarifications here:

The failure rate is exactly the same. Some of the formulae are slightly different, but the differences mostly amount to "use Search instead of Concentration to boost your rolls". (That said, I noticed a few bugs when rereading them, and am committing a fix as I write this post.)
Even on a successful trip, you are extremely likely to take considerable damage.
The spells are otherwise exactly the same as Teleport. Same gold cost, same restrictions, etc. But in the arcane spellbook, they occupy higher-level slots than Teleport despite being objectively inferior in almost every way.

In that context, it's obvious why Mirror Walk is only used by clerics and favored souls as a poor man's Teleport (unlike arcanists, the cleric spellbook gets it at level 5, when wizards would get Teleport), and why Shadow Walk is only used by Shadow Adepts. Because nobody else in their right mind would settle for these spells when they can take the lower-level Teleport and get superior results.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 9:46 am**

That makes me perceive those two spells as inferior options. Is this what they're supposed to be?

I still disagree that the failure chance is fun. If anything I'd expect to get some damage or even a debuff, but remain being able to travel. But this teleportation spell fails at teleportation.

I just think they could be more than poor man's teleport or take-the-abuse-because-it's-free, as is the case with few Shadow Adepts (though like I said even they usually decide it's not a worthwhile enterprise and just teleport).

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:02 am**

Hmm I kinda hoped that these spells had a small chance to take you to a random place in the Shadow Plane or the Mirror Plane, and you'd have to adventure your way out

.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:04 pm**

whatever123 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:02 am Hmm I kinda hoped that these spells had a small chance to take you to a random place in the Shadow Plane or the Mirror Plane, and you'd have to adventure your way out .

That would be ideal in a PnP campaign, but that would be horrible in a mmorpg with no guarantee of dm oversight, and many players having limited time to play. Imagine you're on your 3 hour time for play and it takes you an hour of it to get out of a random dungeon you never wanted to be in. I think instead of having damage or spell failure rates or side-quests to escape a mirror realm or whatever, make them different from teleport in that they only function when certain conditions are met.

Shadow Walk:
Is it possible to script knowing whether a character is standing in an area upon which a shadow is being cast? I THINK it is, because I think it's used as a modifier to hide rolls. If so, make Shadow Walk ONLY function if the caster is standing in an area of shadow, or outdoors at night, or indoors/underground, ie, away from natural light.

Mirror Walk:
The caster must be standing near a reflective surface such as a placeable mirror or a body of water to teleport a party. If a peaceable mirror is used, casting the spell destroys the mirror*. Caster may teleport just themselves if they have a hand mirror inventory item on their person, doing so destroys 1 mirror in their inventory, starting with the one of least value.**

* Destroys the mirror so we don't have dozens of placeable mirrors left laying around
** Destorys the hand mirror because it wouldn't make sense to destroy a big mirror and not a small mirror.

(How I think it should work: Cast mirror walk on your rune, as usual. Script then is (pseudocode):

Code: Select all

If (placeable mirror is near){
	destroy mirror
	teleport party
} else if (body of water near){
	teleport party
} else if (inventory item hand mirror in caster inventory){
	destroy least valuable mirror item in caster inventory
	teleport caster
} else {
	spell fails with message "Must be near a reflective surface"
}

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:05 pm**

To preface, I do not play a shadow adept, but I have grouped with one on a regular basis and have noticed the failure rate to be extraordinarily high. Hopefully whatever changes Dalo is implementing would fix that.

Speaking of implementing, what would be more fun to me would be not so much a chance of failure but a chance you end up on some shadow plane map where you have to fight shadow’s or shadow demons or something CR appropriate. Then being ported to your destination after the fight is done.

That would represent the actual danger of traveling among the planes. It would also give the caster a choice to make. Just finished a hard dungeon, spells are exhausted? Maybe burn that teleport scroll instead.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:22 pm**

Tanlaus wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:05 pm Speaking of implementing, what would be more fun to me would be not so much a chance of failure but a chance you end up on some shadow plane map where you have to fight shadow’s or shadow demons or something CR appropriate. Then being ported to your destination after the fight is done.

As I said, that's fine for people who can literally spend all day online. For people with RL stuff to do, not so much. Teleport's main utility is for people with limited time, and clerics often have no UMD for teleport scrolls.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:29 pm**

Of the traveling spells, teleport is supposed to be one of the safest (with plant walk being the most safe). Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk are supposed to be life threatening with each use. Mirror Walk has a clone of you trying to hunt you down, killing you, and taking your place on the material. Shadow walk is not even a teleport. It uses no teleport magics. It's walking the line between the material and the shadow plane, where you can move much faster (kind of like using the nether in minecraft to fast travel). It's supposed to be very dangerous, and easy to get lost.

These two spells in question are supposed to be far inferior to teleport. Teleport should be a nearly sure thing as long as the caster is sure of the destination, while mirror walk and shadow walk are risking your life every time you use them.

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:35 pm**

JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:29 pm Of the traveling spells, teleport is supposed to be one of the safest (with plant walk being the most safe). Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk are supposed to be life threatening with each use. Mirror Walk has a clone of you trying to hunt you down, killing you, and taking your place on the material. Shadow walk is not even a teleport. It uses no teleport magics. It's walking the line between the material and the shadow plane, where you can move much faster (kind of like using the nether in minecraft to fast travel). It's supposed to be very dangerous, and easy to get lost.

These two spells in question are supposed to be far inferior to teleport. Teleport should be a nearly sure thing as long as the caster is sure of the destination, while mirror walk and shadow walk are risking your life every time you use them.

Everyone knows all that. But the thing is, Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk are both higher level spells than teleport! How does it make sense to have crappier versions at higher levels?

Posted: **Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:43 pm**

Flatted Fifth wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:35 pm
JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:29 pm Of the traveling spells, teleport is supposed to be one of the safest (with plant walk being the most safe). Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk are supposed to be life threatening with each use. Mirror Walk has a clone of you trying to hunt you down, killing you, and taking your place on the material. Shadow walk is not even a teleport. It uses no teleport magics. It's walking the line between the material and the shadow plane, where you can move much faster (kind of like using the nether in minecraft to fast travel). It's supposed to be very dangerous, and easy to get lost.

These two spells in question are supposed to be far inferior to teleport. Teleport should be a nearly sure thing as long as the caster is sure of the destination, while mirror walk and shadow walk are risking your life every time you use them.
Everyone knows all that. But the thing is, Shadow Walk and Mirror Walk are both higher level spells than teleport! How does it make sense to have crappier versions at higher levels?

Because in both shadow walk and mirror walk, you are traversing planes. It's much easier to teleport on a plane than to planeswalk. It would take a much more skilled practitioner of the arcane to cast spells that allow you to move between planes.

Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Shadow Walk, Mirror Walk, etc

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