Remove the Oddity of generated Teleport Scrolls

[Steve]

It has come to my knowledge through a very educational Discord conversation that Teleport scrolls are generated by the RIG/loot with a default CL of 18.

What this does is mess with 2 aspects of mechanics & gameplay. 1) normal UMD mechanics for Spell Level "unlocking" on scrolls is unfairly modified in order to provide the scroll user the ability to teleport 6 PCs with a CL 18 scroll. There is no lower baseline available to the UMD teleporting character. 2) because Casters themselves cannot scribe a scroll above CL 15—which is another level of bullshit that has been pointed out before!!!—it means that Casters are LESS GOOD at their abilities than the RIG/loot generated versions...which devalues the Caster.

Of course, this could be fixed with adding Potions of Teleport...though that it is an ugly fix.

Either generated Teleport scrolls should be knocked down to CL 15, or better yet, CL 9 which is the minimum CL for Level 5 spells.

Cheers.

[Kitunenotsume]

I support this, and will offer my evidence of the crafting weirdness as well as commentary from Valefort on the cause, from my post from 2020: viewtopic.php?f=407&t=73169

[DaloLorn]

1) normal UMD mechanics for Spell Level "unlocking" on scrolls is unfairly modified in order to provide the scroll user the ability to teleport 6 PCs with a CL 18 scroll. There is no lower baseline available to the UMD teleporting character.

This is not true. Teleport is a level 5 spell, therefore it has a UMD DC of 25+5=30. The caster level is of no consequence, and only affects the price of the item in stores (and the effectiveness of the spell).

2) because Casters themselves cannot scribe a scroll above CL 15—which is another level of bullshit that has been pointed out before!!!—it means that Casters are LESS GOOD at their abilities than the RIG/loot generated versions...which devalues the Caster.

And? PC crafters are worse than NPC crafters in almost all regards anyway. This isn't an issue to be fixed with case-by-case tweaks, it needs a complete rebuild of the crafting mechanics.

Of course, this could be fixed with adding Potions of Teleport...though that it is an ugly fix.

I think elixirs of Teleport are actually a thing, unless someone's disabled them. I remember Jalib or someone drinking Teleports back in 2019 or 2020. Consult your alchemist for prices?

That said, I agree, it's ugly. The general attitude has been to make teleportation less accessible to non-casters, which the high UMD check and vendor prices accomplish fairly effectively.

[Steve]

1) normal UMD mechanics for Spell Level "unlocking" on scrolls is unfairly modified in order to provide the scroll user the ability to teleport 6 PCs with a CL 18 scroll. There is no lower baseline available to the UMD teleporting character.

This is not true. Teleport is a level 5 spell, therefore it has a UMD DC of 25+5=30. The caster level is of no consequence, and only affects the price of the item in stores (and the effectiveness of the spell).

I think there is a small misunderstanding here, Dalo.

To utilize a Scroll with UMD, there are 2 levels: a) the reading part; b) the success at use (DC check). A is a modified UMD that a PC needs to have, in order for the scroll to be usable in the first place, as in NOT red or locked in the Inventory. It is also referred to as a "use restricted." That equation is 11 + 2x spell level, and thus for a Teleportation Lvl 5 spell scroll, the UMD restriction pass should be 11 + 10 = 21.

However, because all Teleport scrolls are generated with a CL of 18, the equation is being forced for a UMD restriction check of 11 + 18 = 29.

To add to the confusion, Izzel stated he can use a Teleportation scroll with a modified UMD of 27. But likely, as you say, the DC check for a successful casting is or will be DC 30.

And this is where we have the problem.

[DaloLorn]

1) normal UMD mechanics for Spell Level "unlocking" on scrolls is unfairly modified in order to provide the scroll user the ability to teleport 6 PCs with a CL 18 scroll. There is no lower baseline available to the UMD teleporting character.

This is not true. Teleport is a level 5 spell, therefore it has a UMD DC of 25+5=30. The caster level is of no consequence, and only affects the price of the item in stores (and the effectiveness of the spell).

I think there is a small misunderstanding here, Dalo.

To utilize a Scroll with UMD, there are 2 levels: a) the reading part; b) the success at use (DC check). A is a modified UMD that a PC needs to have, in order for the scroll to be usable in the first place, as in NOT red or locked in the Inventory. It is also referred to as a "use restricted." That equation is 11 + 2x spell level, and thus for a Teleportation Lvl 5 spell scroll, the UMD restriction pass should be 11 + 10 = 21.

However, because all Teleport scrolls are generated with a CL of 18, the equation is being forced for a UMD restriction check of 11 + 18 = 29.

To add to the confusion, Izzel stated he can use a Teleportation scroll with a modified UMD of 27. But likely, as you say, the DC check for a successful casting is or will be DC 30.

And this is where we have the problem.

Your explanation is full of contradictions and inconsistencies. You initially say that the formula is 11 + 2x spell level, and you refer to the innate level to compute a requirement of 21. You then say that the scrolls are CL18, and use a formula of 11 + caster level to compute a requirement of 29. And, as you say, Izzul has provided an upper limit of 27 for the requirement.

[Steve]

This is not true. Teleport is a level 5 spell, therefore it has a UMD DC of 25+5=30. The caster level is of no consequence, and only affects the price of the item in stores (and the effectiveness of the spell).

I think there is a small misunderstanding here, Dalo.

To utilize a Scroll with UMD, there are 2 levels: a) the reading part; b) the success at use (DC check). A is a modified UMD that a PC needs to have, in order for the scroll to be usable in the first place, as in NOT red or locked in the Inventory. It is also referred to as a "use restricted." That equation is 11 + 2x spell level, and thus for a Teleportation Lvl 5 spell scroll, the UMD restriction pass should be 11 + 10 = 21.

However, because all Teleport scrolls are generated with a CL of 18, the equation is being forced for a UMD restriction check of 11 + 18 = 29.

To add to the confusion, Izzel stated he can use a Teleportation scroll with a modified UMD of 27. But likely, as you say, the DC check for a successful casting is or will be DC 30.

And this is where we have the problem.

Your explanation is full of contradictions and inconsistencies. You initially say that the formula is 11 + 2x spell level, and you refer to the innate level to compute a requirement of 21. You then say that the scrolls are CL18, and use a formula of 11 + caster level to compute a requirement of 29. And, as you say, Izzul has provided an upper limit of 27 for the requirement.

I know!!! We had a long and difficult Discord chat on this yesterday!!

It just seems like it’s all messed up.

Which is why I’m suggesting it gets “reset” to normal UMD functionality.

[DaloLorn]

I know!!! We had a long and difficult Discord chat on this yesterday!!

It just seems like it’s all messed up.

Which is why I’m suggesting it gets “reset” to normal UMD functionality.

There's nothing to reset. Contrary to your belief, Teleport uses the same UMD mechanics as every other spell, and the specific bit you're complaining about is hardcoded to read a 2DA table. Which table, which column, and what's done with the value, are not things I have clear documentation for, but it is unlikely to tie to the spell's caster level, and more likely to tie into its innate level, which is the correct and normal value of 5.

[Steve]

Contrary to your belief, Teleport...

I'm not trying to be difficult here!

So...unriddle me this, Daloman!

[DaloLorn]

Contrary to your belief, Teleport...

I'm not trying to be difficult here!

So...unriddle me this, Daloman!

What happens with UMD 23 or 25? I've been able to cobble together some scattered bits and pieces of the system based on the BW docs, but one of the 2DAs (the most important one, in fact) governing the process has an undocumented column whose relevance eludes me. Depending on my methodology, I arrive at DCs ranging from 23 to 29.

[Steve]

Contrary to your belief, Teleport...

I'm not trying to be difficult here!

So...unriddle me this, Daloman!

What happens with UMD 23 or 25? I've been able to cobble together some scattered bits and pieces of the system based on the BW docs, but one of the 2DAs (the most important one, in fact) governing the process has an undocumented column whose relevance eludes me. Depending on my methodology, I arrive at DCs ranging from 23 to 29.

ATM, I’m maxed out on my ability to get a higher modified UMD for this Character. But I will try and locate an item with a UMD bonus of +1 and then +2, to answer your question. Cheers.

[Steve]

What happens with UMD 23 or 25?

I can't get it higher at the moment. Unless someone has a +3 UMD item they wish to lend me for this test.

[Steve]

I also want to add, or ask: we are in agreement that the restriction for use should be met with a modified UMD of 16, yes?

[Kitunenotsume]

There's nothing to reset. Contrary to your belief, Teleport uses the same UMD mechanics as every other spell, and the specific bit you're complaining about is hardcoded to read a 2DA table. Which table, which column, and what's done with the value, are not things I have clear documentation for, but it is unlikely to tie to the spell's caster level, and more likely to tie into its innate level, which is the correct and normal value of 5.

I think that setting the item CL to 9 (the minimum as is standard for magical items) rather than the inflated CL 18, would at least address a consistency matter on items/scrolls. Greater Teleport should probably also be adjusted from CL 20 down to CL15. (Should be iprp_spells.2da, lines 799 and 800)
This would also reduce the cost of the scrolls, but they have the innate casting-price, so it is not a huge savings.

On a related note - P&P scroll DCs are "20 + Caster Level" : https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm
In common practice, "11+ (2 * spell level)" is the same as "12 + minimum CL", but in cases where the CL is higher than minimum the two may vary dramatically.
It therefore isn't unreasonably for the scrolls to have a shortcut somewhere to check CL instead of Innate level, and for the documentation to be wrong. It has happened before.
Addendum: the UMD check itself, per "x2_pc_umdcheck.nss", should be 30, so the largest unknown is why the scroll is red.

Hidden: show

// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
//I am using des_crft_spells.2da Innate Level column here, not (as would be correct)
//the IPPR_Spells.2da InnateLvl column, because some of the scrolls in
//the game (i.e. light) would not be useable (DC 30+)
// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
int nInnateLevel = StringToInt(Get2DAString("des_crft_spells","Level",nSpellID));
int nSkill = SKILL_USE_MAGIC_DEVICE;

[...]

// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Base DC for casting a spell from a scroll is 25+SpellLevel
// We do not have a way to check for misshaps here but GetIsSkillSuccessful
/// does not return the required information
// -------------------------------------------------------------------------
if (GetIsSkillSuccessful(oCaster,nSkill, 25+ nInnateLevel))
{
return TRUE;
}

(Corrected script-section to mention full relevant codeblock, and math, as it was posted in 5 minutes during a lunch break)

[Snarfy]

What happens with UMD 23 or 25?

I can't get it higher at the moment. Unless someone has a +3 UMD item they wish to lend me for this test.

I can get it higher... at 25 UMD the teleport scroll is still unusable.



This is on my 21 bard/5 DC/4 BG with practiced spell caster, gr. heroism and competence song up.

I'll let you all decipher this mess, because I can't for the life of me figure out what is going on with the purple DC's or multiple UMD rolls here. I failed 3 more teleports after this and just gave up. Even my non-casters(with higher UMD) don't fail reading a scroll this much.

[DaloLorn]

On a related note - P&P scroll DCs are "20 + Caster Level" : https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm
In common practice, "11+ (2 * spell level)" is the same as "12 + minimum CL", but in cases where the CL is higher than minimum the two may vary dramatically.
It therefore isn't unreasonably for the scrolls to have a shortcut somewhere to check CL instead of Innate level, and for the documentation to be wrong. It has happened before.

All indications are currently that the UMD cost somehow scales based off of "skillvs"... something, something. I'm on the wrong machine to check what the full 2DA name is right now. It seems to track the item's cost and apply UMD thresholds based on that. (This cost, in turn, has very little to do with the scroll's CL at this time. IIRC, the scroll currently has a base cost of just above 1000gp? It's been a while since I bought any.)

In theory, we could zero out all the columns and add our own UMD enforcement in the on_equip and on_castspell hooks. However, no coherent proposal has yet been made for such a change, and it is likely that it would bring us closer in line with PnP rules. (Which probably means no more taking 20 on wands or other non-scroll uses of UMD, though we'd probably also strip out most class/alignment restrictions from anything except wands and scrolls.)

Addendum: the UMD check itself, per "x2_pc_umdcheck.nss", should be 29, so the largest unknown is why the scroll is red.

That actually makes no mention of what the correct DC is, only where it's being queried. The actual DC is 25+InnateLevel = 25+5 = 30.

I can get it higher... at 25 UMD the teleport scroll is still unusable.

You did not, in fact, fail to read the scroll at any point. (Nor was it physically possible for you to do so, given that you'd raised your UMD to 29, not 25.)

Anyway, to answer your questions!

"purple DCs": That's the standard teleport check. From the look of it, you were trying to teleport from the Underdark to either the surface or the Nexus (don't ask how that happens, I'm not even sure myself). Or maybe from the surface to the Underdark, but the name of your character and the illumination in the screenshot seems to favour a UD-centric interpretation. Either way, cross-realm teleportation seriously hikes up the teleport DC, and only the most dedicated conjurers have thus far proven capable of reliably (if at all) performing such feats, whether by scroll or by spell.

"multiple UMD rolls": This might be because of virtual runes. Every time a spell brings up a popup, it goes back through the spellhook (which includes the UMD check) all over again. I know how to fix this particular bug, but I'll need to ask if we consider it a bug in the first place. (Staff attitudes towards teleportation have historically been... broadly negative, as a thorough enough search through the public Discord could confirm. Pretty sure that's a part of why it has a gold cost on BG.)