Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Hello, returning player here. So I'm scratching my head as to how the Disciple of Darkness feat is at all useful. Is it simply a flavor thing? I would love for my character to have her sorcerer magic tied to an Archdevil or a lacky to one but what is the benefit of taking this feat since it replaces many much more useful feats? Like, during a DM session, Do characters with this feat get to call upon their pacts powers? Can my character get on the "Hell Hotline" and call upon some Ernies and imps to spy on a Paladin snooping around a fellow cults activities? Can I summon more Pit fiends? Surely, surely, this isn't a feat D&D uses just to punish people who want to worship interesting beings? That would just incentivize players to pick the normal slew of gods because who wants to sacrifice a whole feat for essentially RP flavor? Should I just stick to vanilla worship and pick one of the many cool epic feats, or blow it all on a little RP that will rarely if ever come up during a quest? Surely there has to be some sort of incentive for picking this feat, right?

No, there is no real mechanical "benefit" to this feat nor the Thrall to Demon or Servant of the Fallen one, they exist so characters devout to archdevils/demon princes and dead gods can rezz normally without the 10 minute time limitation. They don't represent a "pact".

Why? Because this is an RP server set in Forgotten Realms, youre not obligated to take the feat, but worshipping those beings means some things ICly like the difficulty in being rezzed, which is mitigated by the feat. If you don't want to deal with these IC consequences of picking a dead god/demon/devil to worship, can def just pick a normal god.

From Server Updates, here's the quote regarding those feats:

Characters who serve a heresy, dead god, archdevil, demon prince, or who are Faithless can no longer self-rez by default, and they cannot be resurrected with the Raise Dead or Resurrection spells by default. They can still be brought back with Stabilize, Bloodstaunch, Revivify, or Recall Spirit, up to the maximum of 5 minutes (Stabilize/Bloodstaunch) or 10 minutes (Revivify/Recall Spirit) after death. Heretics with the Heretic of the Fallen Feat, dead god worshipers with the Servant of the Fallen Feat, archdevil worshipers with the Disciple of Darkness feat, and demon prince worshipers with the Thrall to Demon feat can self-rez and be resurrected normally. Faithless characters can never self-rez or be raised if dead longer than 10 minutes. This only affects heretics/dead god worshipers/archfiend worshipers/Faithless characters, characters who follow all other gods continue to play normally aside from the new time limits on different abilities detailed above.

Edit: Also, I know plenty of players willing to take such feats for benefit of RP, myself included. It can be quite fun to RP the worship of such beings, even if its not mechanically optimal!

Yep, that's all the information I could find on it myself. Still makes no sense to me mechanically or RP wise. Why would a character hurt themselves in order to simply worship some entity if they are not getting anything back out of it. You're selling your soul, you should be getting something out of the exchange even if, in the end, the deal doesn't favor you since your immortal soul is owned. That's kind of the point of even thinking about dealing with vile planar beings. This isn't Pen n Paper and many who might take this feat will have no way of actually showing that except to have the cannon in your own head. There is no dedicated DM to sit down with my character sheet and properly RP out my worship of alternate beings so why is this even in here? People can just make up cannon in their head that they are really a demon worshipper, not take the feat, put down Obtao on their character sheet and it would have 0% impact on the world of BGSCC. Since it is just flavor, what's the big deal?

Why not just worship Lloth and then you can say you worship a "demon" since she is technically one. Yes, not sure if Lloth would take a human but you get my point. Why not worship a Deity that is Demon-Devil adjacent without suffering a feat penalty just so you can add a little tiny speck of flavor to your character? "Gee, I could worship this official god with no penalty and they just might even answer my prayers, or should I worship some deity that provides me nothing, hears nothing from me, and is essentially non-existent in the RP world of BGSCC unless by some fluke they actually bring that being onto the server?" It makes sense to make deals with Devil or Demons if your spells are like 10% stronger, but for nothing? Why? This would make sense on Pen n Paper but not on PW server IMO. It doesn't fit and will just end up having the effect of turning many players off from doing mildly interesting things. Necromancer #1124 who worships Velsharoon, you're next! Enjoy not being penalized for doing something cool.

Anarkitty wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:37 am You're selling your soul, you should be getting something out of the exchange even if, in the end, the deal doesn't favor you since your immortal soul is owned.

Again, those feats do not represent a pact! You're not "selling your soul", you're a demon/fiend/heretic worshipper.

Anarkitty wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:37 am Why not worship a Deity that is Demon-Devil adjacent without suffering a feat penalty just so you can add a little tiny speck of flavor to your character?

Go ahead! No one is obligated to take those feats or worship devils/demons/heresies/dead gods, but is it not nice to have the option for those that DO want to do it?

The being you worship matters for RP, not just with DMs (though it is relevant there), but to your own RP as well. To answer your overall question of "why?", the answer is very simple: "Because I want that RP". If you don't see the point, it's fine! But I know some people really like having those options, and no one is obligated to take them!

In an RP server, by playing certain things you're beholden to a certain RP. Say, if you're a cleric of Sune and decide to burn a museum full of paintings? You'll fall from Sune's grace and lose your clerical powers. By playing a cleric of Sune, you're accepting that kind of RP. It may sound harsh and I apologise that I can't find better words, but basically, if you (as in the general "you") don't want to RP certain IC limitations of a choice of class/god/race, don't choose it in the first place.

Velsharoon only becomes a dead power in 4e I think, too. So his worshippers are safe!

renshouj wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:59 am

Anarkitty wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:37 am You're selling your soul, you should be getting something out of the exchange even if, in the end, the deal doesn't favor you since your immortal soul is owned.

Again, those feats do not represent a pact! You're not "selling your soul", you're a demon/fiend/heretic worshipper.

Anarkitty wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:37 am Why not worship a Deity that is Demon-Devil adjacent without suffering a feat penalty just so you can add a little tiny speck of flavor to your character?

Go ahead! No one is obligated to take those feats or worship devils/demons/heresies/dead gods, but is it not nice to have the option for those that DO want to do it?

The being you worship matters for RP, not just with DMs (though it is relevant there), but to your own RP as well. To answer your overall question of "why?", the answer is very simple: "Because I want that RP". If you don't see the point, it's fine! But I know some people really like having those options, and no one is obligated to take them!

In an RP server, by playing certain things you're beholden to a certain RP. Say, if you're a cleric of Sune and decide to burn a museum full of paintings? You'll fall from Sune's grace and lose your clerical powers. By playing a cleric of Sune, you're accepting that kind of RP. It may sound harsh and I apologise that I can't find better words, but basically, if you don't want to RP certain IC limitations of a choice of class/god/race, don't choose it in the first place.

Velsharoon only becomes a dead power in 4e I think, too. So his worshippers are safe!

Yes, but you know the only reason anyone would take this feat is because they made a pact with a Demon, Devil, or some other Golden Calf. No one who is not doing that would take this feat. That's the point. You sell your soul and then take this feat so you can be raised if slain like many other characters. BGTSCC has no way, no reliable or realistic way, of honoring/betraying any Demon/Devil pacts from most players. So they get nothing from said worship. But they are mechanically punished for something they get no mechanical benefit out of.

If this was PnP, I would have a DM working with me on my pacts and I would thus benefit or the character would get burned. But at least there then is a reason to take such a feat because you do have a REAL connection. Most players on BGTSCC who want to seriously worship demons or devils will never ever get one opportunity to make one pact. And yet, there is a mechanical punishment for doing something that doesn't even get acknowledged. Seems silly and like I said before, hurts people who want to do something cool and different. I like to respect server rules and lore so I can't just rp my character worshiping Fierna in my head without taking the feat unless I just really want to PM my character all because...

I changed a blank spot on my character sheet from Obtao to (insert alternate god/demon/devil). If making players take feats to safely worship alternate beings without rewarding them isn't punishment, why not make it 5 feats you need to take to prove your loyalty to any god? It obviously, in a PW, is a negative to character performance. My suggestion to people wanting to do something different is don't because you'll get punished. Just stick to tradition.

I have a wizard/shifter of zuggtmoy on the works right now. No pact, no "soul selling", just worship. Out of it, I get cool RP. It's not for everyone, but its nice to have it as an option. I know I'll have to use a feat if I dont want the rezz limitation, but I still want to choose it.

You see it as punishment, it is mechanically worse, yes, but thats literally just it. It's an RP server after all, based in FR and trying to follow its lore, which is why such things are in place for those beings, it's not an OOC punishment for choosing X deity, it's a limitation based on lore.

People should be informed that this is NOT a mechanically optimal choice to make, and they are, afaik its in the description of dead gods/fiends/heresies. So, its an opt-in, if someone wants to do it, they can, if they don't want to, they are free to choose something else. If they want to play something that has IC limitations without playing those IC limitations, I'm sorry, but it goes back to my example of a Cleric of Sune. If someone doesn't want to deal with the consequences of that choice, there are plenty of other choices to make. You can do a lot of "different" things that arent worshipping a dead god. Hells, a fighter human of chauntea can be made extremely deep and interesting, having X or Y deity doesnt make a character's RP better or worse.

In the end, people should make informed decisions, but if they still want to choose to worship, say, a heresy? Let them!

Hahaha! You know how much my character's soul is worth?

Picture this. My character takes the "Disciple of Darkness feat" instead of taking "Alertness" because she wants to be a naughty person and worship....let's say Asmodeus's cook. My character is like, "I sacrificed much to entertain a contract with you. All I want in return is an infernal item enchanted with a powerful alertness enchantment (Let's be generous, give +3 to spot and listen)."

Soul, sold! So little! But it would still be better than the nothing and minus to power most alternate being worshippers get now.

Thanks for the replies though. It helped make my decision. I'll find an official deity that is kind of, or was once, a Devil or something...I'll figure it out! But still....why? Just...why? It's just a darn name on a sheet. PW and PnP are not exactly the same and for so many to pretend it is just makes things weird. Anyhow, off to see how to mend this into something I'll be happy with.

Anarkitty wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 1:39 am Picture this. My character takes the "Disciple of Darkness feat" instead of taking "Alertness" because she wants to be a naughty person and worship....let's say Asmodeus's cook. My character is like, "I sacrificed much to entertain a contract with you. All I want in return is an infernal item enchanted with a powerful alertness enchantment (Let's be generous, give +3 to spot and listen)."

Technically, you can do that with the current Background Approval system and work a pact into your background while doing the pact "item" as a heirloom item!

And no, as someone that loves the dead god/heresy/fiend stuff, I'd not like to see a mechanical bonus attached to it just to encourage people to take it mechanically. If the RP doesnt draw someone in, thats fine! Thats why its opt-in, gimping yourself a bit for RP is common and not a bad thing, 1 feat is something most builds can spare for the sake of RP, I know a LOT of people do it, even if not for this specific instance, but making choices that are mechanically worse in order to do RP is not uncommon.

Things like taking a bloodline feat even if you wont benefit from it, wasting 3 levels on a dip for RP that'll only harm your BAB and overall scaling, putting skillpoints into skills that only have RP value in detriment of those that have mechanical value... I could go on.

Also it's not just a name on the sheet, its the deity your PC worships, that they pray to, that they fear or align themselves with. RP server, after all!

And no problem! Glad I was able to clear up some doubts, feel free to message me further if you have any more questions. Happy gaming <3

Right, I was merely showing the kind of absurdity of it all. And technically, you should get a benefit because you sold your soul...That's kind of the bargain. I wouldn't attach any benefits to Disciple of Darkness either. It's separate from the pact. This is what you do to cover your butt after you made a terrible deal with a Devil or otherworldly being which costs you. But you should have also gained something. Do they even out? Do you gain an overall slight advantage? Or did you not read the contract correctly because your intelligence is an 8 and you immediately go to hell without passing Go? Makes things interesting. But yes, selling your "soul", if done "right", should be somewhat beneficial even if it comes with curses and side effects.

You get to be Straud, a powerful entity who rules over all he sees...but is forever trapped in his own kingdom reliving his worst and most soul crushing moment over and over again for eternity. But he got power, no? Win!

Alright, you all pushed me into it. I'm making a Cyric worshipper. It's all your fault! Just kidding, I'm going to do worse than that. Just need to do some study on the Chultan Pantheon....muhahaha!

Anarkitty wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:27 am Right, I was merely showing the kind of absurdity of it all. And technically, you should get a benefit because you sold your soul...

Again, you didn't "sell your soul", if you want a proper pact, go with Warlock, and in that case, your powers are the thing you get for selling your soul!

Worshipping a being is different to making a pact with it. If you want a proper pact for your character, thats what Warlocks are made for

I want want to do the pact live and as part of an unfolding story. Otherwise it just remains a mystery as to why her family line keeps popping out sorcerers every generation or two. I've made so many background stories on BGTSCC and I don't want to write another epic. This time I'll keep it informed but short and to the point. I needed a reason for my character to leave her homeland and finding out what pact might be involved is her motivation. So I unfortunately can't do a pact bound backstory. That would be helpful though if that was included with the feat description because the way it reads now sounds so stern and lacks any concerns people might have when reading it. Like, why would I do that to myself on purpose? For what? Maybe add in, "however, since you've made a pact, you can be awarded a background item when....blah blah blah." That would make the feat seem a little more reasonable and not like a cold harsh WTF when someone reads it. I get it, its PnP but BGTSCC isn't exactly like PnP. I pretend it is up until about 90% of the way and then I have to acknowledge the fact that some PnP stuff can't translate well.

Those feats have nothing to do with pacts, I'm sorry I'm not sure how clearer I can be. Being a worshipper of X does NOT mean you have a pact with X, they're not mutually exclusive but they're also not mutually inclusive.

If you want to RP the making of your pact in game, I personally suggest making your character, rping it a bit and trying to find an opportunity for such, then making a DM request about it

renshouj wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:32 am

Anarkitty wrote: ↑Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:27 am Right, I was merely showing the kind of absurdity of it all. And technically, you should get a benefit because you sold your soul...

Again, you didn't "sell your soul", if you want a proper pact, go with Warlock, and in that case, your powers are the thing you get for selling your soul!

Worshipping a being is different to making a pact with it. If you want a proper pact for your character, thats what Warlocks are made for

Except she want's to possibly make a pact like that. Not only warlocks get to make pacts. I mean, how would hell run if it was only warlocks doing that? I know this feat pertains to worship but it also can pertain to pacts which are just deals. That's all they are. You can sell your services, your soul, or many other things like other people's souls. I would possibly be a worshipper and do a soul pact. That's why I used both examples interchangeably.

It sounds as though your concern is that the feat isn't on-par with other choices for feats, and the answer is that it is not intended to be.

My understanding is that choosing a non-deity is a similar decision to taking the Commoner class, accepting a Malus feat, or choosing the limited respawn options on character creation.
None of them grant character power, doing much the opposite in being actively mechanically detrimental to the player who takes it, but provides a different set of experiences that can influence how a character's narrative grows and may be desirable by some people choosing to give a particular tone to their story.

If you have a particular story in mind to tell, it might be best to bring your idea up to the DM team about how to reasonably go about that objective.
If you wish to form a pact as part of your character's story, it is probably appropriate to make a DM request for a Deity change during the event where the bargain is struck.
Trying to enforce such a negotiation in passive mechanics without involving DMs to arbitrate the negotiation seems like a cart-before-horse situation.