Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Remove the icon that appears above a character's head when they're in stealth mode.

1. It's ugly and immersion-breaking. Nothing pulls you out of feeling like you're part of the world than a giant sign over your head saying IT'S A GAME.

Furthermore, the icon is equally bright and visible even in pitch black surroundings, so if you have enough detect you could see a stealthed character more easily than a non-stealthed character because of the glowing icon.

2. The current implementation is buggy, and breaks the shading on cloak models. This can be observed here: https://i.imgur.com/vaMhMGQ.mp4

There is a significant delay after entering and exiting stealth before the icon appears and disappears, so you can clearly see that the shading bug is linked to the icon, not stealth itself.

3. It's metagamey. The Detection vs Stealth system in NWN2 is designed to answer a narrow question: Does one character notice another character, or not? The engine already answers this question mechanically.

The icon adds more additional "mind-reading" information by also answering: Does one character know that another character was trying to stealth? This is really a different question. It is easy to conceive of one character trying to stealth, but failing so badly that another character doesn't even notice the attempt. Equally, you can imagine a really good stealther acting in such a way that if they are detected, it wouldn't seem like they were trying to hide to begin with.

But to put this "mind reading" of intent into more perspective, why should only stealth get a big icon floating over the character? Surely if someone is in Detect mode or Track mode, that too should be obvious to everyone observing them? Maybe characters in spot mode should have big icons too so that stealthers can simply avoid them? I think the better solution is to just remove the icons entirely.

The current iteration of stealth visualization, aka: the icon, is the second version that has been implemented on the server. As a lifetime player of a sneak, I don't really love it or hate it compared to previous versions.

The version before this one was that the stealthed character would simply look all dark and shadowy, minus the icon, which is the one I preferred. Alas, something about that version was buggy as hell, and I remember something about it may have even caused server crashes.

RoseFrost wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 12:35 pm 3. It's metagamey. The Detection vs Stealth system in NWN2 is designed to answer a narrow question: Does one character notice another character, or not? The engine already answers this question mechanically.

The unmodified engine doesn't though, and the long-time server stealth visualization was simply that there was none. Spotters had no-way to differentiate stealthed characters from non(unless the sneak was wearing certain attire, looked like they were walking, or otherwise "behaved" like they didn't want to be seen), which could be fairly cringe inducing when someone rolled up to your sneaky pants and went "HELLO <insert your toons name here>", waved at you, or otherwise outed your sneaking attempt inadvertently, or even deliberately.

Ideally speaking, I would prefer the icon to be gone as well, but I'm not sure if the issues with the non-icon version were ever remedied.

I am all for the icon being fixed/changed. But I was one of the people asking for a way to tell if characters were in stealth. As a spotter, I can't count the number of times where I accidentally outed a stealthed character before we had this; because it looked like they were just walking up, and my toon would nod to them or greet them. So, I'm not saying we need the icon, necessarily; but we need a way to tell if the sneak is trying to hide. After all, that's something our toons would be able to notice, so it's something we need to be able to notice.

Doesn't' bother me; actually find it useful.

Snarfy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 12:50 pmThe unmodified engine doesn't though, and the long-time server stealth visualization was simply that there was none. Spotters had no-way to differentiate stealthed characters from non(unless the sneak was wearing certain attire, looked like they were walking, or otherwise "behaved" like they didn't want to be seen), which could be fairly cringe inducing when someone rolled up to your sneaky pants and went "HELLO <insert your toons name here>", waved at you, or otherwise outed your sneaking attempt inadvertently, or even deliberately.

I think you're missing my point here. There are two questions: outcome and intent. The game engine does handle outcome: Do you detect a stealthed character or not? The game engine does not handle intent: Do you know if a character is in stealth mode, or not? In exactly the same way that the game engine does not tell you if another character is in search mode or track mode. Intent is a different question, and it should require sense motive rolls at the very least if it is to be implemented mechanically.

Just because you can detect another character doesn't mean you should also get to mind-read their intent to stealth. In the same way that if I can detect your character, I shouldn't also magically know that they're in search mode.

"mind read their intent to stealth" is quite... strange to say.
If a character is hiding in the bushes and you see them, it is not mind reading to assume they're trying to hide. I don't see this system going away, I'd personally be against it myself. I also don't mind the icon, but I know some do... If anything, the icon can maybe be changed to something else, just, well, what?

The icon was added in first place because of simple reason:
When you have detected PC who sneaks in non-combat environment, they look like they just walk to you. There is no way a spotter can identify that said PC sneaks or just walks by. There is a desync cause you will see sneaking animation all the time when YOU are sneaking, but those spotted you will just see you walking.

As of metagaming, stealth icon is only visible if you spotted PC. It doesn't show up for you if you didn't thus it can't reveal a stealther.

If latter part is not true, please tell us because it was never intended to reveal stealthed PC, only indicate they are stealthing for those who already spotted them.

Also, due to technical limitations, it will appear few seconds after PC goes to stealth mode and will disappear few seconds after they drop this mode. It's nearly impossible to make it ideally synced due to engine limitations.

EasternCheesE wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:02 pm The icon was added in first place because of simple reason:
When you have detected PC who sneaks in non-combat environment, they look like they just walk to you. There is no way a spotter can identify that said PC sneaks or just walks by. There is a desync cause you will see sneaking animation all the time when YOU are sneaking, but those spotted you will just see you walking.

In PnP when you succeed a a spot check against a hidden creature, whether it intent on attacking you or not and regardless of ultimate intent for hiding from you. You don't then need to roll sense motive to know if it was hiding, you simply know that it was hiding because the act of spotting a hidden creatures assumes and abstracts that you can also tell the difference between someone who is bystanding in a crowd or trying to follow unnoticed.

You wanting to hide the fact you are sneaking because a spotter is not able to tell if someone is sneaking or not, is using a game limitation to game the player on the spotting side, not their character. And their character would know. You seem to want to obfuscate that from the player.

EasternCheesE wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:02 pm As of metagaming, stealth icon is only visible if you spotted PC. It doesn't show up for you if you didn't thus it can't reveal a stealther.

This is true. You only see the icon if you spot the sneaker first. If you don't spot the sneaker, then it's the same as not having an icon at all.

I think it is also normally difficult to tell if someone is hiding actively, without the relevant feedback visually on the character itself. While we don't have the option much to play with it that way, the icon solves many problems.

RoseFrost wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 2:01 pm I think you're missing my point here. There are two questions: outcome and intent. The game engine does handle outcome: Do you detect a stealthed character or not? The game engine does not handle intent: Do you know if a character is in stealth mode, or not? In exactly the same way that the game engine does not tell you if another character is in search mode or track mode. Intent is a different question, and it should require sense motive rolls at the very least if it is to be implemented mechanically.

I get what you're putting down, believe me, I played my sneak for about 8 or 9 years under the vanilla version where spotters couldn't tell, mechanically speaking, if you were in stealth or not. My lack of hair is proof! >.>

And I distinctly remember one of the last cringey RP instances that I had before the first iteration (stealthed character looking all shadowy and stuff, sans icon) of this mechanic went in, it went something like this:

Some damn druid: *Looks at <insert my characters name here>*
Me, the player: .... well, f***balls, now everyone within eye-shot of that emote who CANT spot me ooc'ly knows my character is here, since that damn druid player emoted the name they saw floating over my characters head. Wooooo.
*the next 15 minutes of my life are spent in tells with said druid player, who genuinely didn't intend to out my character like that*

As much as the icon may suck, trust me when I say it is better than going through repeated instances of the above. That being said, the easiest solution would be the removal of the icon, I believe, and not at all more icons or more rolls from x y z. Because sometimes less is really more

I spot my own arse, and it aint much of it.

Would be cool if other players instead saw the tip toe'n animation instead of simple a casual walk and the icon.

When I spot a sneak my emote is *Glances at a particular direction* just so I dont get no dumb response that will likely piss me off lol. The amount of sneaks I spotted during my bartender rp is funny as hell. Most the times my PC *Pretends* he dont see them.

EasternCheesE wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:02 pm
Also, due to technical limitations, it will appear few seconds after PC goes to stealth mode and will disappear few seconds after they drop this mode. It's nearly impossible to make it ideally synced due to engine limitations.

Given state change timing inconsistency the behavior seems tied to module heartbeat.

The spider skin vfx made the least sense to me.

Aspect of Sorrow wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 4:07 am

EasternCheesE wrote: ↑Fri Apr 14, 2023 3:02 pm
Also, due to technical limitations, it will appear few seconds after PC goes to stealth mode and will disappear few seconds after they drop this mode. It's nearly impossible to make it ideally synced due to engine limitations.

Given state change timing inconsistency the behavior seems tied to module heartbeat.

The spider skin vfx made the least sense to me.

It's on PC heartbeat if my memory serves, but, mechanically, this is the same.
As we know, that's as close as we can put it in timing matters.

Even if you concede the motivation behind this (which I don't), it doesn't change the fact that it's ugly, immersion breaking, and buggy. The icon isn't lit, so it's equally bright in pitch black caves, and it breaks the shading on cloak models.

If it's absolutely necessary for people to tell if someone else is stealthing, can't that information be provided by a message they get in the combat log if appropriate checks are made? That way stealthers aren't stuck with the awful icon for the vast majority of time where it isn't actually serving any purpose.

I will concede it is ugly, its clearly not metagamey, how is it buggy though?