New PRC: Thrall of Malcanthet

[Avanos]

With the addition of the ability to worship outsiders, I thought it would be cool to include some PRCs that reflect this!

Here's one that I modified/balanced a bit to better suit BG:

Thrall of Malcanthet

====Description====
Malcanthet often refers to her thralls almost lovingly as her favored children. These are mortal hedonists and seducers who have given their entire lives over to the fulfillment of pleasure and pain. Only when working to subvert the values and morals of the innocent do they turn from this consuming need and it is said that each emotional and physical climax achieved by these thralls is felt in turn by their lascivious mistress deep in Shendilavri.
Thralls of Malcanthet often lead her cults on the Material Plane, but just as often work in secret in the employ of dockside brothels or in the harems of powerful kings. Malcanthet allows only women to become her thralls, for only they can properly transmit the particular thrills and rewards the Queen of Succubi seeks to harvest from the Material Plane.

====Requirements====
Skills: Bluff 9, Diplomacy 9, Perform 6
Feats: Thrall To Demon, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Negotiator
Spellcasting: Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells, or Lesser Invocations
Alignment Required: Chaotic Evil
Gender Required: Female

====Class features progression====
Class Hit die=d8
Proficiencies= Exotic (Whip)
Skill Points= 6 + Int Modifier
Class Skills= Appraise, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Intimidate, Lore: Arcana, Lore: The Planes, Listen, Perform, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot
BAB=Low
Saves= High Will, High Reflex, High Fortitude

====Additional progressions====
- Abyssal Power
- Thoughts of the Mindless
- Profane Beauty
- Scion of Lust

Invocations/Spellcasting Progression
At each level, you gain new invocations/spells known and an increase in invoker/spellcaster level as if you had also gained a level in the invoker/spellcaster class. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.

Abyssal Power
The mighty power of the Abyss flows through a Thrall of Malcanthet. At 1st, 3rd and 5th levels spells that belong to the School of Enchantment have their spellpower increased by one. Mind-Affecting Invocations have their CL increased by 3 and DC by 1 instead.

Thoughts of the Mindless
At 2nd level, a Thrall of Malcanthet gains some of her mistress' ability to seduce or enchant even those that would normally make this impossible. They can treat any of the following immunities on any creature whose CR or Character Level is lower than theirs as a +4 bonus on the relevant save instead: charms, compulsions, fear effects, enchantments and mind-affecting effects.

Profane Beauty
At 3rd level, as long as a Thrall of Malcanthet wears no armor and wields no shield, she gains a deflection bonus to her armor class equal to half her Charisma bonus, to a maximum bonus equal to her Thrall class level.

Scion of Lust
At 5th level, a Thrall of Malcanthet gains a close connection to the powers of lust. She permanently gains 2 points of Charisma

[DaloLorn]

Thoughts of the Mindless isn't doable. Otherwise... *shrugs*

[Deragnost]

That would be fun.

[Avanos]

Updated with feat requirements. Updated Abyssal Power to take into consideration invocations..

Thoughts of the Mindless isn't doable. Otherwise... *shrugs*

And is it not doable because of coding difficulties? Or the conversion from immunity to a +4 will bonus instead?

[Ghost]

Too powerful. What's the source?

Compare this to Red Wizard, which over 10 levels gets +5 CL in one school (that counts towards epic caster DC bonus), and +1 DC in that school, plus two wizard feats. And +4 to saves against that school, though it's easy to cap the saves vs spells anyways. D4 HP progression, 2+int skills, and basically the same skill set as wizard.

This gets over five levels instead:

• +3 CL in enchantment, which is +1 DC (or indeed 3CL and +1 DC for warlocks)
• +2 charisma, which is both several bonus spells, bonus to charisma skills, and +1 DC on sorcerer, warlock or bard (and AC, as we shall see).
• Half charisma to AC, which can potentially be a total of 7 AC. Easily 5-6 AC even with some epic spells in mind.
• Potential to have mind-affecting spells work on literally everything, which includes illusions, by the way.
• D8 hp, the highest of any mage PRC, even above dragon disciple and palemaster.
• High saves in all?!!?!
• An amazing skill set.
• 6+int skills
• And a weapon proficiency in whip?!

This is balanced?!

EDIT:
Oh I found a source:
https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/pr ... nthet.html
This is practically nothing like the suggestion.

[Avanos]

Too powerful. What's the source?

Compare this to Red Wizard, which over 10 levels gets +5 CL in one school (that counts towards epic caster DC bonus), and +1 DC in that school, plus two wizard feats. And +4 to saves against that school, though it's easy to cap the saves vs spells anyways. D4 HP progression, 2+int skills, and basically the same skill set as wizard.

This gets over five levels instead:

• +3 CL in enchantment, which is +1 DC (or indeed 3CL and +1 DC for warlocks)
• +2 charisma, which is both several bonus spells, bonus to charisma skills, and +1 DC on sorcerer, warlock or bard (and AC, as we shall see).
• Half charisma to AC, which can potentially be a total of 7 AC. Easily 5-6 AC even with some epic spells in mind.
• Potential to have mind-affecting spells work on literally everything, which includes illusions, by the way.
• D8 hp, the highest of any mage PRC, even above dragon disciple and palemaster.
• High saves in all?!!?!
• An amazing skill set.
• 6+int skills
• And a weapon proficiency in whip?!

This is balanced?!

EDIT:
Oh I found a source:
https://srd.dndtools.org/srd/classes/pr ... nthet.html
This is practically nothing like the suggestion.

Lets have a discussion about it then!

- Drop HP to D4/6
- Charisma to AC is deflection based - Doesn't stack with other deflection spells/items. - Can also be limited further. (Also consider I can hit close to 65AC with a sorc build of mine - but if I take this class, AC would drop to near 50)
- The idea IS to have mind affecting spells work on everything, at the cost of -4 DC (in the form of a +4 will-save bonus to those immune. I'm also positive that certain creatures like undead, illusions and creatures without a mind can be coded in to not be included in the bypass)
- Skill Set is Meh, its very easy to get these skills anyways
- Adjust Saves - low fort/reflex
- A Scourge (Whip) is the favored weapon of Malcanthet. Its only natural that her thralls would use this - What mechanical OP advantage with the current whips in game would a caster have? Reason for this is thematic.
- Adjust class to a 10 level PRC and make some of the skills a higher level investment


From my point of view - the above PRC is actually quite weak - but you already know that I'm able to mix and match classes to get some powerful results.


Edit: The above listed source is FAR FAR more powerful than what would be allowed on the server, and would fit into what I would categorize as OP.

[DaloLorn]

Minor nitpick to Ghost's post: Half-CHA to AC, capped at Thrall level so you need to have 30 CHA for a maximum of 5 AC. And it's Deflection, not Dodge, so it doesn't stack with stuff.

That said...

Yes, it's nothing like the source material. I'm suspicious of that, because not only is the original generally less powerful, but you actively decry it as more OP: 7/10 vs 5/5 spell progression, d6 vs d8 hit die, +2 to language-dependent spell DCs vs +3 CL to enchantment and apparently a total of +9 CL/+6 DC to mind-affecting warlock invocations if I'm reading this correctly? Plus you added high Reflex/Fortitude saves, and randomly tacked on Appraise, Arcana, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot in exchange for Acrobatics, Bluff, Craft, Escape Artist, Linguistics, Nobility & Royalty, Religion, Sleight of Hand, and UMD.

Virtually the only ways in which the PnP version is stronger are a fistful of sneak dice, a second +2 CHA boost, AC progression (full-CHA up to class level, though still Deflection), a few SLAs, and Succubus Form. Granted, the mental ability increases provided by Succubus Form are so high that we're mechanically incapable of representing them (+12 CHA tops, not stacking with any other CHA enhancements), which would be sort of scary as a CHA DC caster until you returned to natural form and found that all your spell slots had poofed.

I would not personally be opposed to implementing the original PRC as written, with only a handful of modifications where we were unable to implement it correctly. (Those modifications would not completely transform the original; I sincerely hope you didn't expect me to take your OP without reminding myself what the PnP version was? ) I don't think it'll come to that, because you still have to sell people on it, and AFAIK we're generally not making new classes anymore, but we'd have the tech for it:

Hidden: show

• Consolidate Balance+Tumble into Acrobatics, and Forgery/Speak Language into Linguistics to match BG skills.
• Change skill requirements to 9 Perform. Not a big deal, I guess, but I can't think of a second skill to represent the twin Perform requirements, and this keeps the skill point cost almost the same (just 1 point shy of PnP) without changing the minimum level at which the PRC can be taken. No spellcasting requirement; wouldn't be the first PRC we had with spellcasting buffs and no hard caster requirement.
• Succubus Form doesn't give any bonuses to mental ability scores. Instead, it gives a +8 bonus to draining kiss and mind-affecting spell DCs (if spellcasting is retained, else just draining kiss), and 36 SR.
• Removed Telepathic Gaze, Betrayal, and Reflect Enchantment.

[Avanos]

Minor nitpick to Ghost's post: Half-CHA to AC, capped at Thrall level so you need to have 30 CHA for a maximum of 5 AC. And it's Deflection, not Dodge, so it doesn't stack with stuff.

That said...

Yes, it's nothing like the source material. I'm suspicious of that, because not only is the original generally less powerful, but you actively decry it as more OP: 7/10 vs 5/5 spell progression, d6 vs d8 hit die, +2 to language-dependent spell DCs vs +3 CL to enchantment and apparently a total of +9 CL/+6 DC to mind-affecting warlock invocations if I'm reading this correctly? Plus you added high Reflex/Fortitude saves, and randomly tacked on Appraise, Arcana, Listen, Spellcraft, and Spot in exchange for Acrobatics, Bluff, Craft, Escape Artist, Linguistics, Nobility & Royalty, Religion, Sleight of Hand, and UMD.

Virtually the only ways in which the PnP version is stronger are a fistful of sneak dice, a second +2 CHA boost, AC progression (full-CHA up to class level, though still Deflection), a few SLAs, and Succubus Form. Granted, the mental ability increases provided by Succubus Form are so high that we're mechanically incapable of representing them (+12 CHA tops, not stacking with any other CHA enhancements), which would be sort of scary as a CHA DC caster until you returned to natural form and found that all your spell slots had poofed.

I would not personally be opposed to implementing the original PRC as written, with only a handful of modifications where we were unable to implement it correctly. (Those modifications would not completely transform the original; I sincerely hope you didn't expect me to take your OP without reminding myself what the PnP version was? ) I don't think it'll come to that, because you still have to sell people on it, and AFAIK we're generally not making new classes anymore, but we'd have the tech for it:

Hidden: show

• Consolidate Balance+Tumble into Acrobatics, and Forgery/Speak Language into Linguistics to match BG skills.
• Change skill requirements to 9 Perform. Not a big deal, I guess, but I can't think of a second skill to represent the twin Perform requirements, and this keeps the skill point cost almost the same (just 1 point shy of PnP) without changing the minimum level at which the PRC can be taken. No spellcasting requirement; wouldn't be the first PRC we had with spellcasting buffs and no hard caster requirement.
• Succubus Form doesn't give any bonuses to mental ability scores. Instead, it gives a +8 bonus to draining kiss and mind-affecting spell DCs (if spellcasting is retained, else just draining kiss), and 36 SR.
• Removed Telepathic Gaze, Betrayal, and Reflect Enchantment.

Max from abyssal power would be +3 CL/ +1 DC across the board HP might be a bit much, but for a 5 lv PRC doesn't seem like a lot. (HP is a bit overrated imo)
Skills don't really matter for me - so whatever you feel is worth it, cool.

[Ewe]

I can make Thoughts of the Mindless work. Though, as an always on passive ability it seems extremely powerful especially considering how I corrected automatic failure on reflex/will saves a while back.

I think it would be more appropriate as an ability you could use a limited number of times per rest?

[Ashenie]

Hello there,

I have a question. There are a lot interesting questions about balance, but if a compromise was found, is there really a chance that the prestige class gets implemented?

As far as I was aware, the answer whenever a proposition about prestige classes was brought forth was that :
- Our server doesn't need more classes
- Classes can't be implemented as long as more global balance adjustements are made
- Prestige class system is bad and shouldn't be followed
- Our teams don't have the knowledge and ressources to implement new classes

Did that change? Are we allowed to propose new classes for the server with hope that they could be implemented?

If it's not the case, then players have the right to know there is no reason to exhaust themselves,

Thank you very much for an answer,

Cheers,

Ashenie

[DaloLorn]

I can make Thoughts of the Mindless work. Though, as an always on passive ability it seems extremely powerful especially considering how I corrected automatic failure on reflex/will saves a while back.

I think it would be more appropriate as an ability you could use a limited number of times per rest?

It's moot, since we have no reason to homebrew a PRC's class features when we can just take the original PRC (more or less).

Hello there,

I have a question. There are a lot interesting questions about balance, but if a compromise was found, is there really a chance that the prestige class gets implemented?

As far as I was aware, the answer whenever a proposition about prestige classes was brought forth was that :
- Our server doesn't need more classes
- Classes can't be implemented as long as more global balance adjustements are made
- Prestige class system is bad and shouldn't be followed
- Our teams don't have the knowledge and ressources to implement new classes

Did that change? Are we allowed to propose new classes for the server with hope that they could be implemented?

If it's not the case, then players have the right to know there is no reason to exhaust themselves,

Thank you very much for an answer,

Cheers,

Ashenie

It's a good question. I'll answer your points in order:

1. Yep, I hear that one often enough that I make a point of warning people not to hold their breath every time they ask for a new class these days. Personally, I don't mind one way or the other, as long as they're things I can actually implement, and there's no lore/balance issues that would get in the way.
2. ... You mean we shouldn't make new classes while we're still shaking up the overall balancing of the server? I don't remember hearing that one, but it's a reasonable thing to hear. I have a few objections to that notion, though: One is that we might never fully stop making "global balance adjustments", and another is that we're pretty slow about it anyway. (There's also the fact that most of our planned changes - whether or not we'll ever finish them - revolve around changing the content, not the players' ability to deal with that content.)
3. IIRC, the only one who ever said that was Rhifox, and it's sort of tied to "Our server doesn't need more classes". She's not going to singlehandedly stop the addition of a PRC on the grounds that she hates the PRC system, but it's unlikely to get to a point where she even could try to do that.
4. It depends. I'm reasonably confident I know everything I need to know how to make a class, but a lot of the most commonly requested classes (whether base or prestige) keep running afoul of API limitations. This PRC's PnP incarnation can be ported almost verbatim to NWN2, and I've already posted an outline of how I'd port it.

TL;DR: Adding new classes is indeed not a likely proposal to be accepted. There's a lot working against it (and Avanos hasn't done this particular class any favors with his attempt to sneak in a bunch of extra buffs). But we haven't yet made a straightforward policy of "no new classes ever under any circumstances", and honestly, even if we did, I'd expect people to occasionally show up and say "but what about this class?"