Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

While 5th edition D&D is pretty barebones compared to previous systems, they did get a few things very right. Among those are the limitless uses of cantrips and how they scale with levels. I was wondering how difficult it would be to implement either or both. The big benefit would also be that you have several types of damage and utility spells that could complement the usual staff-casting that we see with Magic Missile. While very cool, the lack of any flavor is something I find myself reflecting upon a lot.

Interesting idea! I’ve no clue if it’s “OP” but I’d like that especially if we could make those feats like invisible needle a cantrip never really help much with my needle…even still

ILLY wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:37 am While 5th edition D&D is pretty barebones compared to previous systems, they did get a few things very right. Among those are the limitless uses of cantrips and how they scale with levels. I was wondering how difficult it would be to implement either or both. The big benefit would also be that you have several types of damage and utility spells that could complement the usual staff-casting that we see with Magic Missile. While very cool, the lack of any flavor is something I find myself reflecting upon a lot.

We will not be doing unlimited cantrips, certainly not scaling ones. We offer reserve feats for the option of unlimited casting, instead, which naturally scale up to level 20 and can scale up to level 30 with epic reserve.

RoseMiriel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:14 pm Interesting idea! I’ve no clue if it’s “OP” but I’d like that especially if we could make those feats like invisible needle a cantrip never really help much with my needle…even still

It would be hard to make them OP, I think, unless you set out to do it. Personally I'd put the scaling cantrips on the level of what today's Magic Missile spam. Essentially, you're just substituting the damage type for the most part. I think it would also make mages feel far more "different" from one another. As various classes would focus on various spells for damage.

As it is right now, as a mage you either cast those few buffs or damage spells when the opportunity arises, or you spam the missile staff and with very little in between. It would be so much cooler to see people use acid splash, ray of frost, jolt and many other cantrip level spells instead. There is even an argument that the damage for those would have to be maybe 50% higher than the missile staff, as some are subject to Ranged Touch and/or saves. Meanwhile, magic missile is a very hard to defend against damage type and has no check other than for SR.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:19 pm

ILLY wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 9:37 am While 5th edition D&D is pretty barebones compared to previous systems, they did get a few things very right. Among those are the limitless uses of cantrips and how they scale with levels. I was wondering how difficult it would be to implement either or both. The big benefit would also be that you have several types of damage and utility spells that could complement the usual staff-casting that we see with Magic Missile. While very cool, the lack of any flavor is something I find myself reflecting upon a lot.

We will not be doing unlimited cantrips, certainly not scaling ones. We offer reserve feats for the option of unlimited casting, instead, which naturally scale up to level 20 and can scale up to level 30 with epic reserve.

Are there any statistics on how many PCs have taken those? Personally, I couldn't even fit them given all the pre-reqs. I am taking.

ILLY wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:20 pm

RoseMiriel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:14 pm Interesting idea! I’ve no clue if it’s “OP” but I’d like that especially if we could make those feats like invisible needle a cantrip never really help much with my needle…even still

It would be hard to make them OP, I think, unless you set out to do it. Personally I'd put the scaling cantrips on the level of what today's Magic Missile spam. Essentially, you're just substituting the damage type for the most part. I think it would also make mages feel far more "different" from one another. As various classes would focus on various spells for damage.

As it is right now, as a mage you either cast those few buffs or damage spells when the opportunity arises, or you spam the missile staff and with very little in between. It would be so much cooler to see people use acid splash, ray of frost, jolt and many other cantrip level spells instead. There is even an argument that the damage for those would have to be maybe 50% higher than the missile staff, as some are subject to Ranged Touch and/or saves. Meanwhile, magic missile is a very hard to defend against damage type and has no check other than for SR.

It's not a matter of OP, it's a matter of intended lore of how spellcasting functions. DnD uses Vancian magic, mages are meant to have a limited amount of spells per day and have to carefully ration it. Unlimited magic is in opposition to that intended design, just like a mana system and similar systems would be.

When a mage is out of magic, they are intended to be out of magic, and need to use non-magical means of defending themselves, or escape.

Missile staff (and electric loop staff), frankly, shouldn't exist. It being left as unlimited after the change to staff caster levels was a mistake, and something we've been reluctant to fix given it'd undoubtedly anger people.

I am open to the idea of increasing then number of cantrip slots characters have, though. 4 is really too little.

ILLY wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:23 pmAre there any statistics on how many PCs have taken those? Personally, I couldn't even fit them given all the pre-reqs. I am taking.

No. Invisible Needle, though, is quite common, as it's a standard choice for Daggerspell mages. The other options are a viable option nowadays (they didn't used to be), but, certainly, they are still not a great option. They exist because certain character concepts may want the ability to have an at-will magical ability. At 30 and with epic reserve they can deal ~50 damage per turn, often in a small AOE, which isn't really bad, and it's good at clearing low level creatures when moving throughout the world, but it isn't a primary damage dealing ability and isn't really meant to be.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:34 pm It's not a matter of OP, it's a matter of intended lore of how spellcasting functions. DnD uses Vancian magic, mages are meant to have a limited amount of spells per day and have to carefully ration it. Unlimited magic is in opposition to that intended design, just like a mana system and similar systems would be.

When a mage is out of magic, they are intended to be out of magic, and need to use non-magical means of defending themselves, or escape.

Missile staff (and electric loop staff), frankly, shouldn't exist. It being left as unlimited after the change to staff caster levels was a mistake, and something we've been reluctant to fix given it'd undoubtedly anger people.

I am open to the idea of increasing then number of cantrip slots characters have, though. 4 is really too little.

I am aware that the system was intended to be Vanecian for 3.x, though I feel like the more modern adaptation of unlimited, scaling cantrips speaks for itself given D&D 5th and Pathfinder 2. Though I also recognize that these later editions and pathfinder also balance it quite different with how many spell-slots you have to begin with. With the basic idea being that, while yes, you have a lot of lil' plinking spells to throw at an enemy you also have very few actual spells to tactically use in a situation.

I think increasing the amount of cantrips is fine, but not very impactful or changes all that much. Perhaps if 1st and 2nd circles are raised in slots as well it would be of more consequence to the average spellcaster's ability to provide buffs, debuffs or damage.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:34 pmAre there any statistics on how many PCs have taken those? Personally, I couldn't even fit them given all the pre-reqs. I am taking.

No. Invisible Needle, though, is quite common, as it's a standard choice for Daggerspell mages. The other options are a viable option nowadays (they didn't used to be), but, certainly, they are still not a great option. They exist because certain character concepts may want the ability to have an at-will magical ability. At 30 and with epic reserve they can deal ~50 damage per turn, often in a small AOE, which isn't really bad, and it's good at clearing low level creatures when moving throughout the world, but it isn't a primary damage dealing ability and isn't really meant to be.

Based on my personal, anecdotal experiences, it is a bit disheartening to see warriors, rogue and scoute-types do 80-100+ damage per round without much issue when by comparison I have to use a 9th circle slot to greater empower a polar ray for (at best) 150 damage, and that is if they fail the save which is pretty rare in of itself. For this reason, I have on my sorceress essentially switched all but 4 spells to be utility or defense spells. Because at the end of the day, my ability to do damage in combat as a mage is simply so negligible that I might as well not bother.

I am sure there are arguments to make along the lines of "if you want to blast things play a warlock" but I feel it is a shame that essentially a whole school of magic (evocation) feels so lacking of impact. You get more of a mileage out of Summons who can deal damage over time with a single cast, or save-or-die spells that at least have the chance to immediately solve a "problem".

I think ultimately that is the flaw or the result of how D&D plays within a computer game, as in a tabletop session you aren't going to fight 50 mobs within 15 min (event or not).

ILLY wrote: ↑Sat Apr 20, 2024 1:49 pmI am aware that the system was intended to be Vanecian for 3.x, though I feel like the more modern adaptation of unlimited, scaling cantrips speaks for itself given D&D 5th and Pathfinder 2. Though I also recognize that these later editions and pathfinder also balance it quite different with how many spell-slots you have to begin with. With the basic idea being that, while yes, you have a lot of lil' plinking spells to throw at an enemy you also have very few actual spells to tactically use in a situation.

The closest would actually be Pathfinder 1e, which is essentially 3.75 edition and does have unlimited cantrips. They don't scale, but they are unlimited.

If we were to do unlimited cantrips ever, it would likely be in the PF1 style.

Based on my personal, anecdotal experiences, it is a bit disheartening to see warriors, rogue and scoute-types do 80-100+ damage per round without much issue when by comparison I have to use a 9th circle slot to greater empower a polar ray for (at best) 150 damage, and that is if they fail the save which is pretty rare in of itself. For this reason, I have on my sorceress essentially switched all but 4 spells to be utility or defense spells. Because at the end of the day, my ability to do damage in combat as a mage is simply so negligible that I might as well not bother.

I am sure there are arguments to make along the lines of "if you want to blast things play a warlock" but I feel it is a shame that essentially a whole school of magic (evocation) feels so lacking of impact. You get more of a mileage out of Summons who can deal damage over time with a single cast, or save-or-die spells that at least have the chance to immediately solve a "problem".

I think ultimately that is the flaw or the result of how D&D plays within a computer game, as in a tabletop session you aren't going to fight 50 mobs within 15 min (event or not).

There has been some talks about issues with damage dealing spells, as there are certainly issues in that area. I can't make any promises on it at this time, though.

Personally, I will forever hold the opinion that Pathfinder does anything D&D does but better. Which if you know the history behind Pathfinder and WotC, makes it easy to see why. I am forever grieving that no pathfinder servers ever were really popularized in neither nwn1 or 2. Though doing the PF1 style of cantrips, yeah, it would be something. Not a lot, but a nice quality of life for some types of casters.

As for the latter, I absolutely understand that it is a monumental undertaking to balance something like "the damage of spells". If only because is it impossible to find a perfect balance that abides by both PvP and PvE. That's always the crux. Though, I have seen some nwn1 and 2 servers sort of resolve this by considerably boosting spell damage specifically when it hits non-players. The most common principle I've seen is just a flat +50% damage boost, but I feel that is a pretty rough and dirty way to do it. Easy and (comparatively) quick, on the other hand.

I tend to agree about the unlimited cantrips being cool for flavor of course we have the other items for unlimited of it but without scaling and the weight of those staves unlimited ray of frost isn’t worth it I’d rather wand it hehe=^^

Why not make cantrips unlimited, take out the few damage dealing ones, and add in the reserve feats to cantrips? I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I avoid the reserve feats (and often find myself regretting when I do pick one) is that they take up a feat slot. Nine times out of ten there's usually a much better option among all the available feats. Then the epic reserve feat can still remain for those that want to push the new "Reserve Cantrips" to 30.

Daimondheart wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 10:05 pm Why not make cantrips unlimited, take out the few damage dealing ones, and add in the reserve feats to cantrips? I can't speak for everyone, but the reason I avoid the reserve feats (and often find myself regretting when I do pick one) is that they take up a feat slot. Nine times out of ten there's usually a much better option among all the available feats. Then the epic reserve feat can still remain for those that want to push the new "Reserve Cantrips" to 30.

Yeah, that is my issue too. I have 4 pre-req, feats. You can't live without extended. At least 2 focus feats for my main magic type. And then 3 epic spells and that leaves me with exactly one theoretically "free" feat. Except it is best used as an epic foci feat, another meta magic or more spell penetration.

Perhaps a free feat that gives casters at lvl 1 the choice of one of the reserve spells=^^=

RoseMiriel wrote: ↑Sat Apr 27, 2024 9:14 am Perhaps a free feat that gives casters at lvl 1 the choice of one of the reserve spells=^^=

Absolutely merit to the idea. A great example is how PF2 is handling level progression. You have different feat tracks for class, race and general feats. Meaning, you no longer have to choose between them at the cost of all others. Instead you get to progress all of them at certain levels. With that, they made things like racial feats actually be useful and fun to choose among.

If that idea could be adapted to classes I think it would be cool, though also a lot of work.

Edit: PotM also has added a lot more feat levels to all classes which means that people have a lot more freedom to define their characters through those choices. It helps to make say, two similar class builds still do things different because of their feat selections. It would be cool to see more feats so you can have space to pick more than pre-reqs. and must-haves. If you still wanna put the extra feats into combat stuff, sure, that's on you. But it gives other the opportunity to still get the combat side, even if more narrowly focused, and also have room for those flavourful stuff that may almost never be used otherwise.

There are no plans on making it easier to access reserve feats. The server has no intention on moving away from Vancian magic by giving players free access to unlimited magical abilities. The ability to use unlimited magic is not something every mage can do, it is a special and uncommon supernatural ability, that a character has to actively work towards developing - investing feat slots towards it (or taking the warlock class). If a player wants to have this, then they do have to sacrifice from something else.