Can there be made an alternative to lootz grind for gain?

[Steve]

Hello!

Adventuring is one thing, but I think we all know that the majority see loot grinding as the main and only reliable means to gain, both in coin and in gear for our PC’s Inventory.

For a self-identified role-play Server, the current state means a whole bunch of OOC action.

Perhaps a system where there are less drops overall—maybe next to none—but when a drop does occur, it is far more random and pulls from all the Tiers. Coin the same, except when dropped a greater horde, or, a variety of coin making possibilities (make those Profession Skills actually something!).

This could tie in nicely with a crafting/enchanting system.

As an additional bonus, Levels 1 through 30 would have equal chance for producing, and all Areas would become valid for visiting. And maybe even more players would run new characters and have less incentive to speed to 30 in order to grind those phat lootz at CR 28+.

Suggestions welcome.

[Mork]

You worded it as a sketch of ideas that is difficult to understand. As i read it I don't know what the proposition is. What are you suggesting exactly?

My response is not meant to be mean or rude - just heads up that you worded this message in a way that is difficult to read.

[Louvaine]

Steve, I think the herbalism is already rewarding. I saw people make good money on this. Unsure how the math checks out.

I would like to know more about what 'OOC actions' are, because if you refer to grinding, then I think we ought to look at what kind of characters we create to fit our playstyle.

Maybe I am also ignorant; I've been on a break for a few months!

[Steve]

Steve, I think the herbalism is already rewarding. I saw people make good money on this. Unsure how the math checks out.

I would like to know more about what 'OOC actions' are, because if you refer to grinding, then I think we ought to look at what kind of characters we create to fit our playstyle.

Maybe I am also ignorant; I've been on a break for a few months!

One OOC action is camping Areas and Bosses for respawn.

But to clear up some possible poor wording: it’s a fact that the best gains “materially” are at Level 30 grinding CR 28+ Areas for loot. Loot is also both worthless and extremely rare in quality, and thus it can become so disregarded but also unattainable, it might as well not exist in terms of RP value—mechanical value, OOC numbers value, is highly coveted).

If looting is the beat method for gain, and nothing can be done to add an alternative, then can loot be made more valuable in making it more scarce…in combination with crating/enchanting?

For starters, make it possible that even in a CR 1 area, there is a chance to drop a Top Tier item. That isn’t even possible now, in the current system, so again there is a direction to get to 30 and then grind on repeat.

But still, of more interest is a way to gain in both coin and gear that doesn’t require hours and hours upon hours on lootz grind. Which no one takes seriously anymore, not to forget to mention as IC.

[Mork]

I wouldn't say no one takes grind seriously. Recently I started doing runs that are by design made to be heavily roleplayed. Only thing that is off are numbers and frequency which require suspension of disbelief.

As for the epic drops in low cr we had those in the past for quite long period of time and it resulted in high levels getting disillusioned about endgame difficult runs pillaging mid and low level content. Kind of how people prefer easy reaching woods and frost keep cause pirates,, graypeaks and skull gorge often feel like waste of effort. I am not sure if it would improve the IMO not terrible situation we have now.

Crafters will always have way of earning coin just fine, so are merchants.

[Steve]

I think it’s great if a player takes grinding out loot runs seriously. My experience is 99% of the time groups running a Boss as quick as they can, then having to log out.

I’m not actually advocating taking that away or something. What I’m interested in is alternatives to that, additions, options from doing that, that actually equal the same or nearly the same gain.

I’m also not advocating to allow Epic Level PCs to run low level areas again. To be doubly clear, at this moment, the low level areas are capped in Tier Level loot production. Why? Why not give a Level 1 PC a .01% to get a Tier Five loot item?

Because once you as a player realize you’re throttled for gain until you reach CR 28+ Areas, it’s likely to get to that top tier of gain as soon as possible.

IMHO, suspension of disbelief is only a valid argument when there are mechanical limitations. Design faults should not require suspension of disbelief.

Adventuring should not be seen as a waste of effort. Which is a wholly OOC issue, something I wish could be reduced by creative solutions to a nearly single path to gain.

As for herbs and collection, correct me if I’m wrong, but it requires some Skills that are not available to all Classes and/or PrCs?

And finally, I don’t think making a alt crafter PC is the best suggestion, considering that too is like an OOC solution to an IG design issue.

[Deathgrowl]

As for herbs and collection, correct me if I’m wrong, but it requires some Skills that are not available to all Classes and/or PrCs?

Classes and PRCs, maybe, but I think those skill available through background selection.

Most people know I rather dislike the mindless loot grind we see, though like you Steve, I wouldn't advocate for removing it (even if I might advocate for greater incentives for RP focused activities, and through that passively discourage the mindless stuff). But I'm not sure what you're actually asking for here, if it's not crafting.

Do you have a concrete proposal for some non-loot, non-crafting system that could serve as an alternative means of accumulating gold? I know you're pointing at Profession skills, and if I recall correctly, one of them is involved in the herbalism stuff so that's already kind of on the crafting side of things. I personally have no interest in crafting, since every single game where it is a feature, it is either tedious and essentially obligatory; or it is trivial, boring and useless (with the exception of games where crafting is the primary focus of the game, like Satisfactory). So I too am very interested in seeing other avenues here.

Though I'd say I'd rather see a way for the RP adventure types - as a contrast to the sprinty loot grinder types - to have the wealth advantage. I have in the past proposed diminishing returns on both XP and loot, with heightened initial drop chances, but it's never gone anywhere. And I'll be the first to admit it's not easy to dial in the numbers of such diminishing returns, nor can I guarantee it would encourage more RP adventures over sprinty loot grinds.

But that's my contribution as a suggestion. Definitely not perfect. But I don't think making level 30s running level 1-5 dungeons to get a chance of high epic item is a good solution either. So what else do you propose, Steve?

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Tier 1 - 3 Chest Eligibility.
Area OnLeave event connected to chest cleanup acquires left behind content by looters when all players leave a map.
Abandoned content is pooled into a community box.
NPCs such as Blunt request a string of non-combat, skill centric actionable quests / behaviors approximate to the NPC's area.
Reward is neither XP nor GP, instead every access to the community chest after d6 completed events for 1 IG day.
Chest access window is closed at the end of each IG day, but the abandoned content remains for the next day.

This then continues a symbiotic relationship between the earnings of adventurers and the destined "markets" without adding even more item generation events by delivering abandoned chest content to non combatants as a reward for skill centric accomplishments in safer spaces. Higher tier chest abandoned items will not flood the community side, instead players will have to arrange something with the adventuring parties as item bounties in character, minimizing reward being higher than the risk.

[Steve]

But that's my contribution as a suggestion. Definitely not perfect. But I don't think making level 30s running level 1-5 dungeons to get a chance of high epic item is a good solution either. So what else do you propose, Steve?

I specifically said I do not advocate allowing high level PCs to run low level areas for loot (again). The current “level too high…” lock out is working. Instead, all cheats/bones, in all Areas, should have some chance, even if minuscule, to produce items from all Loot Tiers.

Again: even a CR 1 area could have a .001% chance to produce a Top Tier item.

Why is this important? Because then making and playing Characters of all levels in the style of adventuring through all available areas would have a chance to produce what currently is only possible if one grindz on a CR 28+ area and toon. It is important because a player can RP adventure from Level 1 up and gain, without artificial mechanical prevention.

But that is not exactly my main point, through it is an alternative to the Level 30 grind cycle play.

Yes, improving the gain return on Profession Skill investment would be an option to get coin gain. Maybe also possible to get Gear gain (tokens? I have no good idea atm).

Here is a weird idea: every Area produces a Token (an artificial stand in for experience / visitation), that can only be acquired by a PC in a small Level range from an Areas CR. With said Tokens, a PC can trade them at certain quantities for X (maybe coin, maybe Items?). How many Areas are currently IG? If every single Area was visited and every single Token collected and horded, would that justify getting an Epic gain?

Look, I likely don’t have a very good idea here as solution, but what I see is tons of activity that is undeniably OOC play time because of you don’t loot grind over and over, one jus won’t ever get an Epic Wicked Union, or the like. And though I’m again not advocating to take away players ability TO do this grinding for lootz, having another means that even Ashenie could acquire an Epic Healing Union, would be really, really nice.

So yeah, c’mon smart peoples, let’s figure out how!

[Mork]

Though I'd say I'd rather see a way for the RP adventure types - as a contrast to the sprinty loot grinder types - to have the wealth advantage. I have in the past proposed diminishing returns on both XP and loot, with heightened initial drop chances, but it's never gone anywhere. And I'll be the first to admit it's not easy to dial in the numbers of such diminishing returns, nor can I guarantee it would encourage more RP adventures over sprinty loot grinds.

Comment about "diminishing returns" idea
I'd like to point out something hardcore roleplayers rarely understand when proposing solutions meant to be annoying to "loot grinder types". Loot grinder types are vast portion of online. Without them server dies - simple as that. People who log only for RP sometimes exclusively for events or pre-arranged RP meetings within guilds or player-led plots they'd just log... realized no one is online and logged off. Seen it a lot on other servers.

I understand the division. It is very clear that we have divided community to those who don't have a tiniest amount of roleplaying skill (sometimes even barely speak english) and just like to grind, those who don't have tiniest interest in grinding and just want to RP leading "second life" characters super casually and those who enjoy both to a degree.

Too much diminishing returns stuff/similar ideas clearly meant to improve nothing and just punish people for regular playing is not the solution. You don't want to go this path in community so tiny already.

[Steve]

Though I'd say I'd rather see a way for the RP adventure types - as a contrast to the sprinty loot grinder types - to have the wealth advantage. I have in the past proposed diminishing returns on both XP and loot, with heightened initial drop chances, but it's never gone anywhere. And I'll be the first to admit it's not easy to dial in the numbers of such diminishing returns, nor can I guarantee it would encourage more RP adventures over sprinty loot grinds.

Comment about "diminishing returns" idea
I'd like to point out something hardcore roleplayers rarely understand when proposing solutions meant to be annoying to "loot grinder types". Loot grinder types are vast portion of online. Without them server dies - simple as that. People who log only for RP sometimes exclusively for events or pre-arranged RP meetings within guilds or player-led plots they'd just log... realized no one is online and logged off. Seen it a lot on other servers.

I understand the division. It is very clear that we have divided community to those who don't have a tiniest amount of roleplaying skill (sometimes even barely speak english) and just like to grind, those who don't have tiniest interest in grinding and just want to RP leading "second life" characters super casually and those who enjoy both to a degree.

Too much diminishing returns stuff/similar ideas clearly meant to improve nothing and just punish people for regular playing is not the solution. You don't want to go this path in community so tiny already.

Just to note: in the past, with discussions on diminishing returns, the system to be employed would balance out that one would need to spend LESS time grinding, to have the same chance to acquire great loot, as one must spend now, thus more time to interaction role-play.

In general, that would be a net win for all players, those that primarily grind for fun, and those that primarily interaction RP for fun.

The idea has merit, though…it is still rinse-repeat grinding the same areas over and over.

[Steve]

Tier 1 - 3 Chest Eligibility.
Area OnLeave event connected to chest cleanup acquires left behind content by looters when all players leave a map.
Abandoned content is pooled into a community box.
NPCs such as Blunt request a string of non-combat, skill centric actionable quests / behaviors approximate to the NPC's area.
Reward is neither XP nor GP, instead every access to the community chest after d6 completed events for 1 IG day.
Chest access window is closed at the end of each IG day, but the abandoned content remains for the next day.

This then continues a symbiotic relationship between the earnings of adventurers and the destined "markets" without adding even more item generation events by delivering abandoned chest content to non combatants as a reward for skill centric accomplishments in safer spaces. Higher tier chest abandoned items will not flood the community side, instead players will have to arrange something with the adventuring parties as item bounties in character, minimizing reward being higher than the risk.

Related to this: I think the Random Item NPC merchant was a great addition to BGTSCC. With a caveat: the table it draws from is not balanced, or maybe better said, not equal to all Types of things. And, considering who built it, the table is never going to create a truly epic Item (or...prove me wrong!!).

So any additional mechanic in that vein—which is how I read the suggestion from AoS—where random generation becomes available outside/away from the Areas of Grindification, the better.

However—and isn't there always something Steve?!?—there still is missing more ways for a player and their PC to "farm a living." The herb collection is one, surely. Role-playing a Master Alchemist / Wand Crafter / Scroll Scriber (Free CLs up to 25!!!!) is another means (though how many actually Master Alchemists are there?) Did Rhifox actually script the Profession Skills as they are described on the Wiki, or was that just wishful thinking?

Perhaps BGTSCC needs more gambling NPCs???

[Louvaine]

Though I'd say I'd rather see a way for the RP adventure types - as a contrast to the sprinty loot grinder types - to have the wealth advantage. I have in the past proposed diminishing returns on both XP and loot, with heightened initial drop chances, but it's never gone anywhere. And I'll be the first to admit it's not easy to dial in the numbers of such diminishing returns, nor can I guarantee it would encourage more RP adventures over sprinty loot grinds.

I think this is a great idea.

[Ithilan]

Though I'd say I'd rather see a way for the RP adventure types - as a contrast to the sprinty loot grinder types - to have the wealth advantage. I have in the past proposed diminishing returns on both XP and loot, with heightened initial drop chances, but it's never gone anywhere. And I'll be the first to admit it's not easy to dial in the numbers of such diminishing returns, nor can I guarantee it would encourage more RP adventures over sprinty loot grinds.

Disagree with this, people who are more inclined to level and loot, sprinty or not. Will just look to other games to fill that void if you take it away. It is not an aversion to RP, its just a different fulfilment from the game and the time we put into it. Some people like one or the other aspect of the game and the server, some like it all, it is quite subjective.. but I do not think this promotes RP really, it just streamlines the player base towards certain preferences.

[Deathgrowl]

Yeah, like I said, I don't know if it will solve the (percieved by me) issue either.

But I do feel like I need to clarify something: I'm not advocating for taking away anything from those who do want to grind and loot when I make that suggestion: I'm advocating for frontloading more of the gains:

Let's say over 10 Time Units (TU) a grinder right now is able to on average gain 100 Currency. 10 Currency per TU. Instead, imagine if the average was 25 Currency per TU for the first 2 TUs, then 10 Currency for the next 4 TUs, and then 5 Currency over the last 4 TUs. That means the total average gain over 10 TUs remains the same for the people who spend that time grinding. But it means those who spend only 4 TUs get on average 60 Currency instead of 40 Currency.

I am deliberately not using hours or minutes here, and not gold or XP, because I don't want to get bogged down in discussing whether or not the numbers are accurate. And in any case, maybe the front loading should be heavier. Or lighter. Doesn't matter. The point is just to present the concept.

But once again I don't think actually know if it would solve the issue. Active RP encouragement (rather than passive grind discouragement) is better. But I have literally no idea how to make that work in a way that isn't gamable on an OOC level (in which case it wouldn't actually be RP, after all).