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On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 8:23 am
by Zar'shalee
I will split this into three parts:
PART 1
Summons in general and Control Henchman tool:
Summons still feels very weak in face of PvE game content. Even if you buff them up to the ceiling. Their AC and AB still barely manages them to stand their ground and be efective (that also include damage per hit). Stupid AI of them constantly keep swapping targets if there is more hostiles in the field rendering summons just stand and do nothing for multiple rounds, Randomly starts turning on and off combat casting mode or parry mode (which obviously renders them useless in combat even more). On top of that all summons lost knockdown/disarm abilities when the feat was reworked (more loss of efficiency and practicality).
Control Henchman tool was a good addition to make summoner's life at least slightly more bearable. That being said I often find that summoned creatures tend to completely ignore Henchman tool inputs and even if you order them to attack -THAT ONE SPECIFIC TARGET- They ignore you and keep attacking their own target itself.
Call Henchman is a good function that allow you do get your summons over doorways and narrow spaces that pathfinding cannot comperhand. Pathfinding is shit and we all know that. As it is hardcoded it wont change and lets be honest here it wont change even in EE. BAsed on that call henchman function is great walk around. HOWEVER call henchman function is not usable while you and your party is in combat. This obviously creates super annoying situations where your summons are stuck in the previous room as someone from your party already initiated combat in the next room.
Would it be please possible to make call henchman function work even in combat? It would add more convenience and walkaround to awful pathfinding. And perhaps make summoned creatures somehow without collisions so they could navigate better? Is possible to make control henchman tool more refined?
PART 2
Summon spiders/elementals/shadow pack, etc.
This line of spells seems to lack practical useage(I sometimes use it just for RP flavour):
1)creatures from it are overall very weak
2)round/level?.... Why not minute/level?
3)IT seems like these are not affected by Thaumaturge feats?
Would it be possible to make this line of spells last at least longer since creatures from it are weak? minute/level at least? Scale the creatures with caster level better so they are more useful?
PART 3
True name summons:
Very underwhelming in general, scaling issue and low stats. Lets just say that after I've spent literally millions gold coins for buying dusty tomes, from all those books I've found only couple of creatures which are low level and very weak. Now I want to ask: why even to bother? Like why we have so many true name creatures which are objectively -useless- and just occupy space on the server... I just dont get it? You can spent very large amounts of gold for buying dusty books and after millions you spent you get just one, useless true-name creature. It doesnt seems like there is a balance or satisfaction from all this.
True name summons should be the ultimate end-game for summoner classes, yet only a very small amount of these "true names" have practical uses. They also feel very underwhelming. Yes they do have slightly higher stats than the "normal creatures" But not really by far. They do not look unique and they do not possess unique abilities.
Would it be possible to buff these true names and make them feel more special? (unique abilities, unique looks, elemental attacks, significantly higher AC/AB). Scale them up with the caster level proper so all true names are useful since we have them?
These observations has been made after running dedicated summoner cleric build for couple of years now. I use true name creatures on daily basis. Most "useful" true name creatures's names was given to me. I did not found them in the books.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 10:27 am
by Aspect of Sorrow
Code: Select all
Would it be please possible to make call henchman function work even in combat? It would add more convenience and walkaround to awful pathfinding. And perhaps make summoned creatures somehow without collisions so they could navigate better? Is possible to make control henchman tool more refined?
Unlikely, as each element proposed creates a larger vector of exploitation.
Code: Select all
Would it be possible to make this line of spells last at least longer since creatures from it are weak? minute/level at least? Scale the creatures with caster level better so they are more useful?
I'm not against a 15 minute + cL/Round extension for Thaum.
Code: Select all
Would it be possible to buff these true names and make them feel more special? (unique abilities, unique looks, elemental attacks, significantly higher AC/AB). Scale them up with the caster level proper so all true names are useful since we have them?
There's something of a misconception here, True Name summons are not made as a general purpose end-goal for summoning. While there are summons that are high and above the threshold of some of the base summon groups its intention was for moreso augmenting RP than casual adventuring and loot runs.
Additionally, I'm adverse to buffing anything while we are working to bring the ceiling of the PvE down.
Zar'shalee wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 8:23 am
I will split this into three parts:
PART 1
Summons in general and
Control Henchman tool:
Summons still feels very weak in face of PvE game content. Even if you buff them up to the ceiling. Their AC and AB still barely manages them to stand their ground and be efective (that also include damage per hit). Stupid AI of them constantly keep swapping targets if there is more hostiles in the field rendering summons just stand and do nothing for multiple rounds, Randomly starts turning on and off combat casting mode or parry mode (which obviously renders them useless in combat even more). On top of that all summons lost knockdown/disarm abilities when the feat was reworked (more loss of efficiency and practicality).
Control Henchman tool was a good addition to make summoner's life at least slightly more bearable. That being said I often find that summoned creatures tend to completely ignore Henchman tool inputs and even if you order them to attack -THAT ONE SPECIFIC TARGET- They ignore you and keep attacking their own target itself.
Call Henchman is a good function that allow you do get your summons over doorways and narrow spaces that pathfinding cannot comperhand. Pathfinding is shit and we all know that. As it is hardcoded it wont change and lets be honest here it wont change even in EE. BAsed on that call henchman function is great walk around. HOWEVER call henchman function is not usable while you and your party is in combat. This obviously creates super annoying situations where your summons are stuck in the previous room as someone from your party already initiated combat in the next room.
Would it be please possible to make call henchman function work even in combat? It would add more convenience and walkaround to awful pathfinding. And perhaps make summoned creatures somehow without collisions so they could navigate better? Is possible to make control henchman tool more refined?
PART 2
Summon spiders/elementals/shadow pack, etc.
This line of spells seems to lack practical useage(I sometimes use it just for RP flavour):
1)creatures from it are overall very weak
2)round/level?.... Why not minute/level?
3)IT seems like these are not affected by Thaumaturge feats?
Would it be possible to make this line of spells last at least longer since creatures from it are weak? minute/level at least? Scale the creatures with caster level better so they are more useful?
PART 3
True name summons:
Very underwhelming in general, scaling issue and low stats. Lets just say that after I've spent literally millions gold coins for buying dusty tomes, from all those books I've found only couple of creatures which are low level and very weak. Now I want to ask: why even to bother? Like why we have so many true name creatures which are objectively -useless- and just occupy space on the server... I just dont get it? You can spent very large amounts of gold for buying dusty books and after millions you spent you get just one, useless true-name creature. It doesnt seems like there is a balance or satisfaction from all this.
True name summons should be the ultimate end-game for summoner classes, yet only a very small amount of these "true names" have practical uses. They also feel very underwhelming. Yes they do have slightly higher stats than the "normal creatures" But not really by far. They do not look unique and they do not possess unique abilities.
Would it be possible to buff these true names and make them feel more special? (unique abilities, unique looks, elemental attacks, significantly higher AC/AB). Scale them up with the caster level proper so all true names are useful since we have them?
These observations has been made after running dedicated summoner cleric build for couple of years now. I use true name creatures on daily basis. Most "useful" true name creatures's names was given to me. I did not found them in the books.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 2:24 pm
by Zar'shalee
Aspect of Sorrow wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 10:27 am
Code: Select all
Would it be please possible to make call henchman function work even in combat? It would add more convenience and walkaround to awful pathfinding. And perhaps make summoned creatures somehow without collisions so they could navigate better? Is possible to make control henchman tool more refined?
Unlikely, as each element proposed creates a larger vector of exploitation.
I am sorry, but how exactly would "recall henchman" get exploited if you could do it in combat?... Isn't it what that ability is suppose to do in a first place? Because it is not doing it at this point. You cannot recall your summons if you or your party is in combat. By using the basic logic it feels like you
SHOULD be able to do it in a first place and it feels like a glitch when you cannot recall them when you actually -need to recall them- so them come/teleport to you, coming to your aid when you need it...
ADD True name summons:
True names absolutely
-ARE- desirable end game goal for summoner characters? That is the reality of things. True name summons are stronger than their normal counterparts = as a summoner where summoned creatures are your actual
weapon it is in your best interest to get them. Which is a good system on it's own. If it was not the original purpose behind true names, then it should be properly embraced.
Listen... I provide you feedback from long-term player. Who plays dedicated summoner for couple of years now... Telling you what is annoying about playing such an character and what should improve in order to make experience better. It is your right to just say that I am full of shit and nope it out instantly as I've expected you would. Or you can take the blue pill and do something about it.
Is it possible to come out with a system what would scale up creatures based on CL + class? Like... why are some creatures locked on level 17 and stop progressing from there? Like... why when my CL 30 conjurer summons Large spider - creature IX and it is stuck at level 22?.. Same goes for True names. Some of them are even stuck on level 17 while it feels they should be much higher and stronger.
Creature stats are the whole another matter. But I agree if PvE revamp is being worked on, touching the stats now do not really matter.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 3:28 pm
by Louvaine
These days, if you do find a true name, it's usually taken anyway. That system should be looked at closely, I imagine, but an easy fix is adding more names to the pool with, indeed, stronger summons than your average one.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 4:05 pm
by Aspect of Sorrow
I'm not going to elaborate on exploits, some of which are abused as is with the existence of the Recall today. The recall function is a last resort feature of drawing the NPCs to the player when the voice commands such as the VEE "Follow Me" is not coercing follow instruction and not intended as an at will teleporting tether. This is not something we're going to pursue changing in a direction that conflates the already existing issues it poses.
The majority of the True Name blueprints do not match your expectation or perceived "reality of things." There are very few that are better than the standard summons, a few that are approximate to Thaum/Necro adjusted Gate, but most fall approximate to the Planar Binding / Ally specification, with quite a few approximate to the 5-12 CR space such as the imp. I have no intention of expanding the True Name creatures as after observing player harboring behaviors it's better to put them inline with an alignment locked summon space with the other standard palettes.
Listen... I provide you feedback from long-term player. Who plays dedicated summoner for couple of years now... Telling you what is annoying about playing such an character and what should improve in order to make experience better. It is your right to just say that I am full of shit and nope it out instantly as I've expected you would. Or you can take the blue pill and do something about it.
I imagine you mean the red pill, but anyways what's proposed so far isn't adequately justifiable. Change can happily occur, but change for the sake of change with a forest from the trees perspective mismatch isn't likely.
Our summoning system is pretty mediocre, the mechanism for amplification in each creature build out is predominantly static, and there's enough to merit a redesign from the ground up, remove non foundation static blueprints, and devise a system that caters in code. We'll get there, but not before a PvE revamp wraps up.
Louvaine wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 3:28 pm
These days, if you do find a true name, it's usually taken anyway.
This is another issue I personally take with the true names is that there are public lists of those names being distributed amongst players without the character having actually come in contact with the name itself, so what was an IC intentioned mechanic has turned starkly OOC and misused.
Zar'shalee wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 2:24 pm
Aspect of Sorrow wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 10:27 am
Code: Select all
Would it be please possible to make call henchman function work even in combat? It would add more convenience and walkaround to awful pathfinding. And perhaps make summoned creatures somehow without collisions so they could navigate better? Is possible to make control henchman tool more refined?
Unlikely, as each element proposed creates a larger vector of exploitation.
I am sorry, but how exactly would "recall henchman" get exploited if you could do it in combat?... Isn't it what that ability is suppose to do in a first place? Because it is not doing it at this point. You cannot recall your summons if you or your party is in combat. By using the basic logic it feels like you
SHOULD be able to do it in a first place and it feels like a glitch when you cannot recall them when you actually -need to recall them- so them come/teleport to you, coming to your aid when you need it...
ADD True name summons:
True names absolutely
-ARE- desirable end game goal for summoner characters? That is the reality of things. True name summons are stronger than their normal counterparts = as a summoner where summoned creatures are your actual
weapon it is in your best interest to get them. Which is a good system on it's own. If it was not the original purpose behind true names, then it should be properly embraced.
Listen... I provide you feedback from long-term player. Who plays dedicated summoner for couple of years now... Telling you what is annoying about playing such an character and what should improve in order to make experience better. It is your right to just say that I am full of shit and nope it out instantly as I've expected you would. Or you can take the blue pill and do something about it.
Is it possible to come out with a system what would scale up creatures based on CL + class? Like... why are some creatures locked on level 17 and stop progressing from there? Like... why when my CL 30 conjurer summons Large spider - creature IX and it is stuck at level 22?.. Same goes for True names. Some of them are even stuck on level 17 while it feels they should be much higher and stronger.
Creature stats are the whole another matter. But I agree if PvE revamp is being worked on, touching the stats now do not really matter.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 4:54 pm
by Zar'shalee
Aspect of Sorrow wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 4:05 pm
I'm not going to elaborate on exploits, some of which are abused as is with the existence of the Recall today. The recall function is a last resort feature of drawing the NPCs to the player when the voice commands such as the VEE "Follow Me" is not coercing follow instruction and not intended as an at will teleporting tether. This is not something we're going to pursue changing in a direction that conflates the already existing issues it poses.
Outside of Recall function. Your summons sometimes teleport to you spontaniously on their own (followed by summoning VFX) and sometimes even in combat. So there clearly is already something writen in the code regarding creatures teleporting to the owner while in combat.
All I want is to just have control over it, instead of having it happening randomly or not at all. It is creating issues where summons are stuck somewhere and cannot transition because your character has been engaged by some archer from a far and you are locked in combat. It feels legit broken.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:04 pm
by Mork
I can agree normal diamond and canary diamond names are waste of gold and were used to "enhance" RP zero or close to zero times in the existence of the server. How do I know? If you need a RP pet you can have one with default spell/mount system/pet wand etc. 20AC creature asking Epic Adventurer for 100k to be "hired" is a joke. Considering usefulness for anything sub-30 is considering 1-3% of situations cause no one stays low level for long except few toons owned by players who specifically chose to stay low for RP flavor.
Erasing all sub-level30-usefull named summons won't be something many people will care about. Probably someone with access to Database can check if there are any summons often used in that "pet" category and confirm it. Dusty Tomes feel very underwhelming as they are now.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:27 pm
by Zar'shalee
Mork wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:04 pm
I can agree normal diamond and canary diamond names are waste of gold and were used to "enhance" RP zero or close to zero times in the existence of the server. How do I know? If you need a RP pet you can have one with default spell/mount system/pet wand etc. 20AC creature asking Epic Adventurer for 100k to be "hired" is a joke. Considering usefulness for anything sub-30 is considering 1-3% of situations cause no one stays low level for long except few toons owned by players who specifically chose to stay low for RP flavor.
Erasing all sub-level30-usefull named summons won't be something many people will care about. Probably someone with access to Database can check if there are any summons often used in that "pet" category and confirm it. Dusty Tomes feel very underwhelming as they are now.
100k?... Well then. That is still very low amount actually can be significantly more up to 500k. But yes, ridiculous prices for "hiring" the creatures which are legit useless is another topic I havent even touched... I would be fine with the payment if those creatures actually mattered. Could be a good gold sink and server need those.
I think the whole system is corrupt and there are probably players that have name sheet of all true name creatures in the game...and I dont even want to know how they got it. Because after opening roughly 40-50 dusty tomes in total I've got only something around 4-5 true names from those (not counting doubles).
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:54 pm
by Deathgrowl
Out of sheer curiosity, what sort of stats would you guys deem acceptable for summons? How powerful do you expect them to be compared to the content you are doing (including buffs)?
40AC and 40AB, 30 damage per hit? 50AC and 50AB, 30 damage per hit? Just looking for some numbers.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 6:18 pm
by Mork
Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:54 pm
Out of sheer curiosity, what sort of stats would you guys deem acceptable for summons? How powerful do you expect them to be compared to the content you are doing (including buffs)?
40AC and 40AB, 30 damage per hit? 50AC and 50AB, 30 damage per hit? Just looking for some numbers.
Personally I'd say 50-60AC, probably somewhere in between 40-50 AB. 50-60 dmg with crits for 200 could begin maaaybe make them useful due to stats compensating for poor AI. Just personal opinion - not realistic expectation mind you.
Realistically based on what I know there is no interest in making summons viable. Nwn2 bugs about summons crashing on transition don't help the situation. Summoner will forever remain in realm of RP builds. I'd even go as far as to say when it comes to teamplay having summoner around is a chore. Of course we often do take characters around simply to enjoy their company but that aside and considering pure mechanics it's more pleasant to do a level 30 content with level 10 commoner than with maxed out summoner cause of how blocky summons feel.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 6:36 pm
by Steve
Here is a screenshot for you, of one of the most powerful Named Being summons. I found this Name on the 3rd Tome I looted, but did not have a Character with Epic Gate spell for another 6 months (I level slow, as you may know). After this, I've also opened about 10 Dusty Tomes, and not a single Name in any of the 10. Which is par for the course (and getting a Name should be rare).
The left is the base stats, the right is what I can buff it with using Arcane spellbook. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but since Named Beings do not benefit from Spell Focus Conjuration feats like other Summon spells, there is an inherent limit on just how high one can make this Named Beings get in power. And, you just need Epic Gate spell in order to get an epic Named Being summoned, no Spell Focus in Conjuration at all. You be the judge to its power relation to mobs and Bosses in the Epic CR areas...
So between Spell Focus and Thaumaturge PrC, there might need to be a rethink about what Summons in general have for stats, apart from all the "work" Named Beings need to be relevant in this era of the Server.
PS- I covet this Named Being and make damn sure I don't lose it to another by religiously reupping it. Sucks for others, but the whole "don't summon it, lose it" aspect to Named Beings is crap to begin with...imho.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 6:38 pm
by Zar'shalee
Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:54 pm
Out of sheer curiosity, what sort of stats would you guys deem acceptable for summons? How powerful do you expect them to be compared to the content you are doing (including buffs)?
40AC and 40AB, 30 damage per hit? 50AC and 50AB, 30 damage per hit? Just looking for some numbers.
I can put on some numbers.
One of my True names that I consider "somewhat useful" When fully buffed (wands included) level 19 Outsider. Can muster 45 AC 44/39/34/29 AB. But damage only 2-12 + 17 (STR bonus) +5 GMW. So realistically he hits usually around 20-25+-. Creature also has some DR. It can stand for itself in CR 25 locations but anything above that low damage output starts to show. 45 AC is not enough to survive dungeons like pirates or Forgotten city. DR is helping to mitigate low AC but damage output is just way too low.
In current PvE enviroment when we talk about dungeons, buffed creatures need something along the lines of 50 AC, 45AB is fine in my opinion. Damage output is the biggest issue. That should be at least 35-45 (crit range then 70-100). Plus to add various DRs so they can stand at least a bit longer in the dungeons for example against some of the bosses. Passive HP regeneration for demons...Elemental damage (Balor is fighitng with flaming sword which do not do any elemental damage)...Permanent flaming aura for some of the demon creatures which have flame auta in their visual (Balors, Fiends, Palrethee). There are ways to make summons more sexy.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 6:39 pm
by predrag
Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:54 pm
Out of sheer curiosity, what sort of stats would you guys deem acceptable for summons? How powerful do you expect them to be compared to the content you are doing (including buffs)?
40AC and 40AB, 30 damage per hit? 50AC and 50AB, 30 damage per hit? Just looking for some numbers.
I'd recommend having some specialized summons , rather than one does it all .
For example some summons could have spellcasting , others high ab/damage per hit and lastly some with decent hp/ac .
Wouldn't be too high to have summons with 55 ab /35 damage for example , imo , if they last short and have really low defenses , 25 ac , 180 hp or so .
Also decent 500 hp with 55 ac defender summons wouldn't be too strong , if they retain low ab in the 30s and low dps .
Basically I'd say , if you can kill something with a missile storm or finger of death , a summon should be able to kill it as well .
But not much more .
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 6:47 pm
by Deathgrowl
Do you consider summons viable only if you are able to use them to solo high CR (27+) areas?
I hope you guys realise what you're asking for here is essentially summons with the martial power of a decent or even good PC fighter. So the ask is essentially to have an AI powered PC fighter build next to a potentially quite potent spellcaster.
Re: On summons once again
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2025 6:49 pm
by Zar'shalee
predrag wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 6:39 pm
Deathgrowl wrote: ↑Fri Dec 26, 2025 5:54 pm
Out of sheer curiosity, what sort of stats would you guys deem acceptable for summons? How powerful do you expect them to be compared to the content you are doing (including buffs)?
40AC and 40AB, 30 damage per hit? 50AC and 50AB, 30 damage per hit? Just looking for some numbers.
I'd recommend having some specialized summons , rather than one does it all .
For example some summons could have spellcasting , others high ab/damage per hit and lastly some with decent hp/ac .
Wouldn't be too high to have summons with 55 ab /35 damage for example , imo , if they last short and have really low defenses , 25 ac , 180 hp or so .
Also decent 500 hp with 55 ac defender summons wouldn't be too strong , if they retain low ab in the 30s and low dps .
Basically I'd say , if you can kill something with a missile storm or finger of death , a summon should be able to kill it as well .
But not much more .
We already have summons taht are suppose to be spellcasters and it is just not working. They have only couple of spells and you ultimately have no control over them where to land those spells. It is just pure RNG chaos.
