Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

So if a surface race say a human goes to the UD when the portals open could he or she join one of the schools of magic ? I realize their is little hope of achieving a high rank but are they able to join the school if they are a Wizard ?

If, however, a surfacer were able to somehow have learned how to polymorph into a drow, and then after that rather complex feat, know the languages of the drow people, and the ways of drow in Sshamath, and be able to convince all the other drow in the entire city that he/she was one of them ... then yes, I would think he/she could join the school.

In Other Words : Don't count on it.

Okay XD

Poor Dustin..... whats left for him in the Surface? other than killing Trent, and letting Ivaris know he is still alive

One of the heads of the schools of Sshamath is a surface elf.

Besides the mechanical limitations (you wont be spawning there, ever) I dont see why it isnt possible.

Hell we have drow trying to play good surfacers all the time, why not the other way around?

Broham2 wrote:One of the heads of the schools of Sshamath is a surface elf.

Besides the mechanical limitations (you wont be spawning there, ever) I dont see why it isnt possible.

Hell we have drow trying to play good surfacers all the time, why not the other way around?

I stand corrected. Broham trumps my previous comment.

Aren't oomies treated as super second class citizens below even lowly peasant drow? That Dustin must make powerful friends and be involved in heavy politics to prevent himself from getting whacked and hacked... and tis ain't just about getting the jewels set on the rack either.

Humans would be treated as secondary citizens, at the very best and you would only be allowed inside the city as long as you benefit the trade of Sshamath.


Subject: Lore: Everything needed to know about Sshamath

Kelsfar wrote: Population
--------snip-------
Sshamathans are both welcoming of outsiders and xenophobic. The city's culture is steeped in fear of conquest, yet Sshamath's continued existence depends on the steady flow of Underdark traders bringing in goods for its inhabitants' artifice. This conflict enables all races to visit Sshamath, even traditional drow foes, yet ensures that such visitors are only superficially welcomed and always under great, unspoken suspicion.
--------snip-------

Noncitizens
--------snip-------
Actual citizenship is never granted to nondrow, though permanent residency is allowed so long as business is conducted as mentioned above. This second-class 'ghetto' of humans and Deep Imaskari is never allowed to grow large, but the city recognizes the value of these noncitizens as scapegoats or sacrificial lambs.
--------snip-------

I only know of drow members of the Conclave / Masters of the Schools? Unless ofcourse the above link is outdated =)

Rulers
--------snip-------
At present, the roster of Sshamath's ruling Conclave includes the following:
Master of Abjuration Masoj Dhuunyl
(NE male drow )
Master of Conjuration and Summoning Urlryn Khalazza
(CE male drow )
Master of Divination Seldszar Elpragh
(LE male drow )
Master of Enchantment and Charm Malaggar Xarann
(CE male drow )
Master of Illusion and Phantasm Felyndiira T'orgh
(CE female drow )
Master of Invocation and Evocation Krondorl Waeglossz
(CE male drow )
Master of Necromancy Tsabrak of the Blood
(CE male drow vampire )
Master of Transmutation Shurdriira Helviiryn
(CE female drow )
Master of Mages Guldor Zauviir
(CE male drow )
Master of Elemental Magic Antalab of the Shaking Stones
(NE male drow )

Being a member of a School of Magic is in itself a pretty high rank, don't count on ever attaining it but feel free to set youself up as a merchant instead? =)

Amal'launim wrote:Humans would be treated as secondary citizens, at the very best and you would only be allowed inside the city as long as you benefit the trade of Sshamath.

Sort of. Your average human is more of a third-class citizen. Non-wizard drow are going to fall into second class citizen status. Members of the schools and, perhaps, the charnag generally get to be the first class citizens.

A powerful non-drow wizard is certainly going to hold some measure of clout in the city as well. They are the city's customers, and as such need to have some modicum of safety and respect. A relatively unimportant drow would probably be at a disadvantage if they somehow accosted an important visiting wizard or merchant. Relatively unimportant meaning non-wizard, non-charnag.

Also, don't confuse "benefiting trade" with "being a merchant." The city needs laborers, and as such, plenty of non-drow can toil away in exceedingly unimportant jobs as long as they like. The city even has a slum area, which implies a certain measure of joblessness. So, for whatever reason, they aren't regularly culling non-contributors. Though they may, as mentioned in the lore, be used as scapegoats, and are generally going to have a tough life.

Pretty much, as long as you don't piss off the conclave, you'll be fine, but on your own versus the rest of the factions.

Humm, Mabey dusty will have to make a trip down their . . after i Finnish killing Trent again, when I come back hopefully the underdark will be open . . . Also, I fear Trent may out lvl me when we met next upon my return : P.


And we have gone so far of topic, but i want to just get the jist of it. . .


"Yes a non drow could join a school of magic, though it is unlikely that he will achieve a high rank." ?

Oh boy, lots to fix here.

Broham2 wrote:One of the heads of the schools of Sshamath is a surface elf.

Besides the mechanical limitations (you wont be spawning there, ever) I dont see why it isnt possible.

Hell we have drow trying to play good surfacers all the time, why not the other way around?

In this time period, and even current 3.5 (4.0 as far as I am concerned should not be recognized as D&D) all conclave representatives are Drow, male and female. I think I know who Broham2 is talking about, but I can't remember for the life of me what that characters name is or what school they are a member of. I tried to look it up, but couldn't come across it. All I know is that they are a sun elf (yea I know, hard to believe) and a high ranking member of one of the schools. That is one of the VERY rare exceptions to the rule, sort of like Dritz.

Amal'launim wrote:Humans would be treated as secondary citizens, at the very best and you would only be allowed inside the city as long as you benefit the trade of Sshamath.

raetin wrote:Sort of. Your average human is more of a third-class citizen. Non-wizard drow are going to fall into second class citizen status. Members of the schools and, perhaps, the charnag generally get to be the first class citizens.

A Human wizard, powerful or not, would not even be considered a 3rd class citizen, if there is such a thing. They would be considered a NON-citizen and a visitor of the city. If it is known that such a Human wizard is indeed powerful he may garner some respect in that he may not be spit on in the street, but he would still be seen as a Rivvil (human). If he can make himself useful and valuable to some school perhaps he could be seen more as a very valuable "private contractor". He could then benefit from his close relationship to the school in his stature in the city, but make no mistake, others (other drow wizards looking for the favor of the masters of the schools and to further their rank) would see him at best as a tool to further their plans or worse as a bug to be squashed. A Human wizard would be constantly walking that tight rope.

raetin wrote:So, for whatever reason, they aren't regularly culling non-contributors. Though they may, as mentioned in the lore, be used as scapegoats, and are generally going to have a tough life.

Please read this closely, read between the lines.

Amal'launim wrote:This second-class 'ghetto' of humans and Deep Imaskari is never allowed to grow large, but the city recognizes the value of these noncitizens as scapegoats or sacrificial lambs.

Yes, there is "culling" in the city of Sshamath like any other Drow city. Vagrants, Criminals, and those the Conclave or perhaps other high ranking members of society dislike are "purged" from the city. While many Lloth run cities may be loud about it with clerics riding through the streets on the back of lizards with whips and chains to grab those who could not run away fast enough for sacrifice, etc... Sshamath is more quiet in these matters as to not alarm traders and merchants.

Go up to the second floor of the school of Necromancy in Sshamath for an example to what happens to Vagrants and Criminals.

Just because Sshamath puts on a pretty face for the traders doesn't mean under that smile there aren't fangs. Yes, the Darkwoods is a "ghetto" but it doesn't mean they don't have jobs; they are just poor. Don't forget that many "refugee" types come to Sshamath looking for an alternative to a Lloth based city. If they can't find work, if they become useless and have no business in the city..... what do you think happens to them hmm. The Jobless don't last long in any Drow city, Criminals (those that get caught and can't bribe a guard) will be expelled if they are lucky, and if you piss off the Conclave or any of the high ranking members of the schools you would know it pretty damn fast (or perhaps you wouldn't even realize what hit you).

I really hope that cleared up some things. Remember, Sshamath is a Drow city first and foremost. Is it Liberal for a Drow city, yes, as liberal as they come, but is it still a Drow city, you better believe it.

mar3usmc wrote:A Human wizard, powerful or not, would not even be considered a 3rd class citizen, if there is such a thing

Apologies on my wording of citizenry. Yes, I'm aware that only drow can be citizens. I meant "lower class." I also meant to imply that there are not merely two classes, drow and non-drow. There are three. Drow wizards, drow, and then non-drow. It is an important point to remember for my next assertion.

While a non-drow is never going to be a citizen, they can be important, or useful if you prefer. Some wizard/merchant/whatever bringing trade to the city is going to expect a measure of safety and respect, or it would follow they would cease such trade. Sshamath, for all its evil, is running a business after all. They can't have the customers getting harassed.

So, if some drow wizard, or the charnag, want to screw around with the useful non-drow, they probably can. They get to the set the rules, it goes without saying. Any repercussions there would be very special and completely outside of the point I'm attempting to make.

However, if some random non-wizard drow has an argument with an important non-drow wizard/merchant/whatever, I have my doubts that the non-wizard drow gets an "automatic win" so to speak. Assume here that it is a serious feud that goes beyond just some short interaction with the guards. The conclave is going to weigh the utility of the two, and it is quite likely the non-wizard drow will come up short.

So yeah, these non-drow visitors and merchants are mere "tools," but tools can be important. Just like in a lolthite city you wouldn't screw around with the slaves of a powerful house, you aren't going to screw around with the conclave's merchants/etc. Not because you respect the person, but because you don't want to overtly frustrate the business of an entity many times more powerful than you.

Finally, as for the culling, gotcha. Your necromancy solution makes sense.

as with the rest of drow life your connections count.

a rivvil with powerful connections in the drow hierarchy would garner respect simply by the strength of those connections.

however he's still ibblith, with the right amount of recompense to their "connections" killing him wouldnt be much of an issue at all.

of course that's providing you can are in a position to compensate the drow disadvantaged by losing his favorite pet rivvil.

Subject: Laws of Sshamath

adzling wrote:Generally speaking any altercation involving a citizen and non-citizen generally results in the citizen prevailing. The penalty, while usually fitting the crime, also depends upon the whim of the officer. This could take the form of a fine (payable to the offended party and not usually exceeding 500gp), banishment, jail or other unspecified punishment.

Considering this is posted in the topic Laws of Sshamath... I think it's pretty straightforward. Non-drow = non-citizen, always. I'm not certain what the requirements are to be a citizen in Sshamath for drow to be honest as it's never come up. Would like to get that explained though =)

Yes, there might be the rare case of a non-drow attaining some powerful connections. Though to be honest there really isn't a lot of important figureheads around to RP with that would provide you any leverage with the Guards to the best of my knowledge (save perhaps for Nimenaar, Adz, and Izzy if they are returning?)

But even then, what self respecting drow is going to lift an eyebrow if their pet runs around (socially/verbally) biting other drow and then gets put down? It becomes a liability instead of an asset if its affiliated with you, and someone solves the problem for you, yay!

mar3usmc wrote: In this time period, and even current 3.5 (4.0 as far as I am concerned should not be recognized as D&D) all conclave representatives are Drow, male and female. I think I know who Broham2 is talking about, but I can't remember for the life of me what that characters name is or what school they are a member of. I tried to look it up, but couldn't come across it. All I know is that they are a sun elf (yea I know, hard to believe) and a high ranking member of one of the schools. That is one of the VERY rare exceptions to the rule, sort of like Dritz.

Errr, arn't humans the most sporadic of all races so their is no real drizzt of the human race, as human's have no real inherent nature as elf's, gnomes, dwarfs, or others have ?

And also i wanted to know about joining one of the schools not becoming a citizen.