Ruling: Speaking while Polymorphing

[Syracuse]

May I ask what it is that's bringing this conclusion that playing mutes is better than playing characters that can speak?

Honest question, just clarifying. I don't get really get it. Doesn't the content of the post dictate the quality of the roleplay, more than just imposed limitations? To me, it seems like saying something like that must mean that everyone writes letters, rather than emails, or doesn't own a cell phone. A better means of conveying words doesn't really equate to 'better roleplay' in my mind.

I like when people with low intelligence/charisma characters act like their sheet, personally. That seems like a far better limitation than making them mute. A paladin isn't allowed to swear by the old rules in 2nd edition, I found that a good limitation in speech as they were forced to constantly conduct themselves in a manner that wouldn't lead them to slipping of the tongue and dropping a expletive despite how frustrated they might become.

I know this isn't the place to ask this question, so if someone points me in the right direction as this thread has 'lived its life', I'll gladly go ask over there. Not sure where to ask a question like this. Community thread?

[metaquad4]

Don't forget, there are many kinds of elementals. We are speaking about Fire/Earth/Water/Air elementals, which are very specific creatures. If we could turn into an orglash, or a djinn (are they elementals?) it might be different. But, we can't.

[Selande]

I know we mentioned critters learning languages. Or can be given additional ones. Or even the Awaken spell.

I don't know if that automatically means they speak it though. Just understand it.

[Flasmix]

Did anybody ever look into the expanded rules section about Polymorphing on the Wizard archives which explains what would happen?

As per; http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp? ... /20040518a

You retain your ability to speak if your assumed form has that ability.

Speech is a natural ability (see Part One); however speech has a mental aspect (your brain's ability to handle language) and a physical aspect (working vocal apparatus). You have to have both to speak in an assumed form. Furthermore, your assumed form must be able to speak naturally. If you assume the form of a creature that cannot speak or use language during the normal course of its life, you still lose the ability to speak. This distinction doesn't often come up with the alter self spell (because it doesn't let you assume a form with a type different than your own), but it can with other polymorph effects.

What does this mean in terms of Elementals? To quote the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm); "Air elementals speak Auran, though they rarely choose to do so."

This clearly says that Air Elementals can speak Auran. As beings of the Plane of Air, they would not be visiting the Material Plane to learn Common. Auran is Common to them, so to speak. Due to the fact that they can speak, as per the ruling from Wizards of the Coast, should a Polymorphed Wizard or Wildshaped Druid assume Elemental Form, they would be able to speak any language they know due to their own 'Mental Aspect' and the physical form of the elemental already being able to speak a language.

If the chosen form cannot speak ANY language, then the chosen Polymorphed/Wildshaped form CANNOT speak either.


The Revisted Polymorph section went into some detail about Wildshaping Druids in Animal Form;

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp? ... /20060523a

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)

After reading more of this over, I'm beginning to wonder if I should open a thread based on Spellcasting while Polymorphed because after all, rules state;

You retain your spellcasting abilities, but your assumed form might limit what you can do.

You can use spells with verbal components only if you have retained the ability to speak. You can use somatic and material components only if your assumed form has limbs capable of dealing with them.

[Grimcheese]

I know we mentioned critters learning languages. Or can be given additional ones. Or even the Awaken spell.

I don't know if that automatically means they speak it though. Just understand it.

I know for sure that Tongues is a spell that's available in BG, but I can count the people who slot and use it with one hand and have fingers to spare.

May I ask what it is that's bringing this conclusion that playing mutes is better than playing characters that can speak?

Honest question, just clarifying. I don't get really get it. Doesn't the content of the post dictate the quality of the roleplay, more than just imposed limitations? To me, it seems like saying something like that must mean that everyone writes letters, rather than emails, or doesn't own a cell phone. A better means of conveying words doesn't really equate to 'better roleplay' in my mind.

Why the hate for mutes?

Kidding aside, isn't there a recurring trope, something-adversity-breeds-greatness-something? You don't even have to be a mute to practice it. Also, post content is not the only part that makes a good roleplay--as you'll find out if you get hold of some of my fanfics.

If a person writes a letter and has it sent by courier when they can use an email, most of the time they're being silly, or have yet to get used to the system. If someone writes a letter and has it courier'd because they don't have access to the Internet either because they live in the middle end of nowhere, or there's been a disaster that shut down all the power lines, then that's another story.

I like when people with low intelligence/charisma characters act like their sheet, personally. That seems like a far better limitation than making them mute.

I thought polymorphed creatures keep the same mental stats as their original form does? I mean, for my part, I don't care if this ruling is passed or changed, because my main character wouldn't have a problem either way. I think the second part of the paragraph

A paladin isn't allowed to swear by the old rules in 2nd edition, I found that a good limitation in speech as they were forced to constantly conduct themselves in a manner that wouldn't lead them to slipping of the tongue and dropping a expletive despite how frustrated they might become.

is what the DMs intend, if I'm reading it correctly. A polymorphed elemental isn't mute as long as the original form knew the elemental's language(s) in the first place, or there's a friendly caster with a Tongues handy.

[Syracuse]

Oo~ Grimmy, how did you know conversation about rp is one of my favorite things~?

I'm still getting home from work, but when I can properly type, I hope you'll check back for a reply!

[Syracuse]

Why the hate for mutes?

Never would I ever! But, if I may a moment.

I really adored your character, Rook, back when I used to play Wyn'caellia. Especially since I got to see you very often, and there was always this intensity between her and Wyn, thanks to Wyn being a huge and impatient jerk. The thing was, Wyn really liked her. And wanted to be friends with her. Wyn tried everything she could damn well think of, but Chult breeds hard people. Wyn's adversity made her very, very hard.

But Rook wasn't just compelling because she was a mute. It was more why she was. Her collective nature was tied up behind that mysterious wrapping of refusing to speak. The content of her character is what was intriguing.

Not to bash on mutes, but let's face it. The last thing you'd ever want in the world is to be trapped in a room with someone that can't talk with you. Adversity, indeed, does breed strength. It also breeds a really messed up in the head mind set that tells these people, 'Why live a quiet life -- let's go kill a god damn dragon, skin it, and wear it as armor.'

I always try to create as much identifiable woe in a character as I think they should have. Eva, though I'm srue you never met her, had her share of past woes to overcome. Things that made her understand that there was huge gaps to overcome between elven and human kind before they'd ever get along with one another. Another character, my bard bhaalist, had some very very deranged family issues that led to her murdering her own father, and declaring all men scum before the lord of murder.

I don't hate on people that play blind characters, or mute characters. But I think that when it comes with a reason, it becomes more than just a disability that makes it really awkward to interact with them. I used to play on a server called Sundren way back when, where in I played a elven illusionist named 'Thresh'. Thresh was a hell of a odd cookie, she spoke broken common until becoming accustomed to her new life, was always nervous, and tripped all over herself.

Then, one day, Thresh saved a lot of soldiers lives. She was part of a druidic circle that, by their lore, touched powers of the land that they called 'ley lines'. Without expounding the lore of another PW, to put it in ultimately short terms -- Thresh had two choices.

She could either harness a power that she didn't understand. Teleport her small party directly atop the orc chieftain, slay him, and win the day. Or she could allow about 600 helmites to die in a massive conflict against orc kind. She chose the former, and she paid a humongous price. She lost her left arm in a bloody mess that couldn't be fixed.

What followed afterwards was truly compelling. Although, OOCly speaking, I can not even begin to tell you how frustrating it is to play a illusionist specialist wizard that has a permanent 50% arcane spell failure chance. Even when she later became a druid/wizard/mystic theurge split, I still only had a 5 fortitude save from all the debuffs the token a DM enforced onto me gave me. It was really, really... depressing. I couldn't go out and level with others, and make money.

So Thresh became a huge political force of change for druids. When a war hero that nearly lost her livelihood to a war wound shows up at your door, and tells you 'x needs to change, but we can make this work', you end up listening. I was, luckily enough, known on the server ofor two things. Extremely high knowledge skills in every lore category, and crafting wands, potions, weapons, and armors. This kept her relvant mechanics wise. But the RP was made amazing thanks to her sacrifice, and the fact that she kept going. And had loads of positivity, and spiritual awareness/peacefulness that she constantly guided others with.

I like when people with low intelligence/charisma characters act like their sheet, personally. That seems like a far better limitation than making them mute.

I thought polymorphed creatures keep the same mental stats as their original form does? I mean, for my part, I don't care if this ruling is passed or changed, because my main character wouldn't have a problem either way. I think the second part of the paragraph

A paladin isn't allowed to swear by the old rules in 2nd edition, I found that a good limitation in speech as they were forced to constantly conduct themselves in a manner that wouldn't lead them to slipping of the tongue and dropping a expletive despite how frustrated they might become.

is what the DMs intend, if I'm reading it correctly. A polymorphed elemental isn't mute as long as the original form knew the elemental's language(s) in the first place, or there's a friendly caster with a Tongues handy.

That's my fault there, I should've explained. I didn't mean to say I want mental stats to change with transformation. I meant, that this is the sorts of 'hard' roleplay we need to do. The sorts of limitations our sheets impose.

When you're smart OOCly, it's hard to play a dumb character. Challenging, but rewarding when you nail it. When you play a low charisma character, and manage to rein in being a nice person to make that character a grump, or a weirdo. That's more limitations you imposed yourself that help to express what your character is.

Eva had two major things that made her very, very hard to identify with, or even take seriously. She had a 10 charisma, but naturally was a very nice, loving, caring friend for nearly everyone. So, I gave her two limitations. One is a secret. But the other, everyone knew.

Eva's really thick as pea soup accent. I gave her a absolutely -obnoxious- accent that had to be typed out everytime I went to post. The accent was only for her speaking common, of course, but I gave her the equivalent of a lower class cockney accent. It made her cute, but it was also... very very hard to take a woman speaking nearly gibberish to take seriously. Her flighty attitude further helped me to convey that she was a lovely girl that just was sort of a goofball. And her crippling stage fright, which I loved RPing everytime a song or poem contest came about.

I don't find limitations, with reasons, to be hampering of roleplay. When I bring up paladins, there's a reason for those codes. If paladins were just fighters with holy powers, they'd be a snooze fest. There'd be no reason for their existence. The fact that they have to act almost -inhuman- in their devotions, be quick of wit, mind, and sword, all while keeping the utmost composure is what makes paladin roleplay so awesome.

These sorts of things are evident in other restrictions, as well. Druids have to be, by some means, neutral. Eva was neutral good. So I gave her respect for the law, as to keep out of trouble -- but -constantly- pushing her luck with flirtations, jokes, tawdry banter, and pranks to keep her from being flat out lawful. This was my limitation for her.

When we declare that elemental can't speak, it... it honestly really hurts. I love the fantasy setting. I -love- the great and terrible powers. I love the amazing, unearthly beauty of it. I love that the unexpected can be right around the corner. I want to protect that.

When a elemental can't speak, it changes so many, many things. It means that the language of another world is no longer this alien tongue that is wholly inspired by another world's defining element, it's just... a cheap imitation of that element. Where's the dignity in that? And that humans, or other 'tongued' creatures would imitate it just seems so silly, all so we can try to apply science to a thing that has a impossible existence. What's wrong with a living ball of fire suddenly talking to you? I think that's far more compelling, than a mindless thing that just... floats around starting fires. There's no dignity in that. It's all explained away. It no longer becomes fantastic the more we force science into the mix. Science is for sci-fi, and even sci-fi has a million caveats to make the impossible something that we can dream of as the pinnacle of sciences.

More and more, fantasy has become so diluted. Everything gets explained away. Every year, yet another clone of Tolkein's work rolls out of the mill of 'cheap crap trying to turn a quick buck', and people eat it up because it's so easy to digest. There's no mysteries anymore, there's no unexplained things. There's no children going to bed with legitimate fear of a monster beneath the box spring, waiting to eat them or drag them off into the dead of night to eat their eyes or something totally crazy.

Fantasy characters can't exist without fantasy. I'm a cynic RL. A big cynic. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in ghosts. I believe in what I see. I have a critical mind that doesn't have time for fairy tales RL. Because everything -can- be explained. And just so we're clear, before anyone at all shows up to huff and puff - I don't care if you do believe in these things. I hope they make you happy, so long as no one else is harmed over it. I don't believe in karma - I just believe in being a decent human being because life is hard enough without ruining someone else's day needlessly.

I need fantasy. I need the unexplained. I need a creature that has no mouth, and yet must scream its hatred of you when you slay it. In a tongue that sounds like fire brimming to the point of jet fuel exploding before it shatters, leaving behind nothing but a flash, scorched earth, and the wonder of where it went after you slayed it. I need a world where pixies and sprites enter our world through toadstool circles, to play with you. Or at you, in the cas eof tricks and pranks. I need a world where gods are not only really really real, but -really- in mortal business all the time, creating great schemes and plotting against one another. I need the unexplained! I sincerely need that! It's so beautiful, and it's so compelling. And people, when they try it out and it's done right, love it. They eat it up. But it's so much easier to just... accept things that make sense. Rather than giving in to the suspension of disbelief, and just believing that the mystery, and beauty of fiction, lies within the unexplainable. Where seelie knights swear undying fealty to goddesses, and ride the backs of metal clad stags into war against forces of unparalleled evil. Where people can take ten steps off of the beaten roads, and come upon a creature that was born with so much hate in its heart, that it just wants to kill you to hear you scream. Where your blood burns with anger when you're confronted by truly terrifying powers at work with only the mindset to cause harm. Where your paladin took those vows, and day in and day out, protects the innocent through them.

Fantasy is more than reality can handle. I just want to preserve what's beautiful. The unexplainable. If we explain away all the fantasy, it loses the thing that keeps it from just being 'weird medieval simulator with pointy eared protagonists'. We lose magic itself.

That's why I'm so damn passionate about this. I want to save fantasy. I want to -gift- everyone with wonder. Because there's none of that left in the world.

Well. Kinda derailed there. Sorry. That's all I wanted to say.

[Maximvs]

I remember reading that no one can talk while polymorphed unless the race allows normal speech. I consider this ruling correct. Elementals don't have proper mouths to speak common. They only speak their own elemental tongue ( ignan for fire elementals, etc ) and it is assumed that these tongues can be spoken with sounds of the elements, like flames burning quickly or shifts of the wind and etc.

What your character says using the in game language system doesn't represent what they really say.

[Boddynock]

I remember reading that no one can talk while polymorphed unless the race allows normal speech. I consider this ruling correct. Elementals don't have proper mouths to speak common. They only speak their own elemental tongue ( ignan for fire elementals, etc ) and it is assumed that these tongues can be spoken with sounds of the elements, like flames burning quickly or shifts of the wind and etc.

What your character says using the in game language system doesn't represent what they really say.

How can you consider that the correct ruling when all the sourcebook evidence in the thread, not some of it, but all of it, supports the opposite of this? Did you read any of the material presented, or are you just sharing your opinion? You are absolutely free to share your opinion, but why should your opinion trump the actual rules and how they are written?

And if you did actually read that "no one can talk while polymorphed unless the race allows normal speech," I urge you to cite it properly, so we can all educate ourselves and read what was actually in the rules...as I have done throughout this thread.

[Maximvs]

Indeed, I didn't read the 5 page of huge arse posts.

I don't know exactly which basic book I read that, but one of them says that shapechanged people cannot communicate properly unless the shape allows it. Plenty of variations apply, if you're a treant, you can talk really slowly, for example? Also the Monstrous manual says the elementals only speaks their own tongue, not common.

If there's a source that contradicts another, I -personally- prefer to side with the main books than any supplement, unless the supplement is damn well written, because supplement books were really just printed to make more cash money.

For example, that living holocaust on top of page 5, it doesn't speak common either, but rather Auran, Ignan and Abyssal... Auran being wind sounds, something it can immitate, Ignan being fire sounds, also something it can imitate, and... Abyssal. Abyssal, the demon tongue, also consists of strange sounds, from crashing waves and barks of mean canines and buzz of bees and such... It can probably replicate at least half of the sounds of the language, but more importantly, part of the message lies in the intensity and variations of these strange noises, and that it can probably do well. So my bet is it can probably speak Abyssal at at least 50 % efficiency. Maybe it can even pick up stuff from the ground and create more noises required to better speak the strange tongue. Maybe it fills the rest with magic.

Hey, a druid that knows Abyssal and shapeshifted in a dog can probably speak Abyssal at 10 % efficiency. It is one of these not fully answered question that the DM has to fill in, and I find their ruling correct.

[Syracuse]

So we'd have to reinvent what the term 'languages known' means entirely, then, to fit your description.

You either know a language, or you don't, man. There's no 'efficiency levels', let alone percentiles regarding the language, they know it or they don't. You can certainly RP being 'a little rusty with my Chondathan', but the gymnastics being applied to that explanation are pretty immense.

[Maximvs]

You either know a language, or you don't, man. There's no 'efficiency levels'

Well, the DM's job is to make a world credible with details. Once in a while, I walk around and stumble upon a tourist that asks direction in such horrible, horrible english... ha.

I assume it knows the language fully but can only speak 50 - 75% of it. A mute person can know a language, for example. Besides, I don't even need to argue this example fully, because nobody can turn in that special kind of monster anyways.

Some other guy pulled the correct info from the book. You need two things, the intelligence to speak and a proper vocal apparatus to speak a tongue. Fire, air, water and earth elementals don't have mouths. So what is there to discuss exactly?

[Syracuse]

You either know a language, or you don't, man. There's no 'efficiency levels'

Well, the DM's job is to make a world credible with details. Once in a while, I walk around and stumble upon a tourist that asks direction in such horrible, horrible english... ha.

I assume it knows the language fully but can only speak 50 - 75% of it. A mute person can know a language, for example. Besides, I don't even need to argue this example fully, because nobody can turn in that special kind of monster anyways.

Some other guy pulled the correct info from the book. You need two things, the intelligence to speak and a proper vocal apparatus to speak a tongue. Fire, air, water and earth elementals don't have mouths. So what is there to discuss exactly?

I dunno. They're made of fire, yet you can kill them with swords... have no heart, lives. Have no brain, yet thinks. Nothing even close to a system that could typically propel itself, yet does.

Look, I'm not gonna bother posting in this thread any longer. This 'point' has been posted a dozen times, and when you're willingly denying source material like the holocaust elemental, I just don't know what to say anymore. Also, I'd say that your tourist is 'learning' English, not fluent in it. We have a mechanic for that that's DM granted, learning through roleplay. When they think you've sufficiently learned the language, iirc, they grant it to you if you make enough roleplay posts pertaining to it. That's how they make that believable.

[Maximvs]

Denying? While your posts got plenty of details, none address the mouth question. Let me ask you a simple question. The fire elemental doesn't have a ( edit ) sufficiently working ( edit ) mouth. How can the druid speak common? I want details on how it's done.

[Boddynock]

Indeed, I didn't read the 5 page of huge arse posts.

I don't know exactly which basic book I read that, but one of them says that shapechanged people cannot communicate properly unless the shape allows it. Plenty of variations apply, if you're a treant, you can talk really slowly, for example? Also the Monstrous manual says the elementals only speaks their own tongue, not common.

If there's a source that contradicts another, I -personally- prefer to side with the main books than any supplement, unless the supplement is damn well written, because supplement books were really just printed to make more cash money.

Ok, so let's start with "I didn't read..." I can't have a debate with someone who is WILLFULLY ignoring my side of the argument, nothing you say has value anymore, because you have basically admitted nothing I say has merit to you and no amount of evidence can change your mind because you haven't bothered to read it. That's not a debate, your just arguing. I will address the points you brought up here, since you presented them, but after this I would encourage you to read BOTH positions if you want to take part in the debate, because that is the appropriate thing to do in a debate.

The actual text on the monster manual reads, for example: "Fire elementals speak ignan, but rarely choose to do so."

It does NOT say, as you claimed, that they only speak ignan, or that they are only capable of speaking ignan.

Secondly, fair enough, you discredit the non-core sourcebooks due to your opinion that they were only printed to make money. The fact is that they were printed, and they present rules that the core rulebooks don't cover or address. There is actually no contradiction, because no where in the CRB does it state that elementals are incapable of speaking anything other than their native tongue. However, in non-core rulebooks it does say that they can. So, no contradiction, just the core rulebooks don't address it at all, and the other do.