Owl's Insight to P&P equivilent duration

[Kitunenotsume]

I tried looking in case this suggestion already existed, but I couldn't find one.

Anyhow, suggestion is to match Owl's Insight to P&P equivalent duration.
Per tabletop, it lasts 1 hour: https://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/spell ... ght--4619/
Not, 1 hour/level.

The difference here, of course, is 29 hours.

The server has 15 minutes per hour. I would think that 1 IG hour (15 RL minutes) is more appropriate for the power of the spell than 450 minutes (900 extended), permitting a temporary burst of high stat, but not literally outshining alternatives in every conceivable way, and making it more in-line with the intended balance of the spell.

[Steve]

Is that 1 RL hour or 15 minutes RL in your suggestion?

[Kitunenotsume]

1 IG hour, 15 RL minutes. (Or similar timeframe as appropriate)

Clarified in initial post.

[MrSmith]

I realize there is significant deference paid to P&P as an authoritative standard. Yet, whenever anyone recommends "nerfing" anything in game... I always ask myself, "who benefits?"

The average price of Elixirs have increased to ~19,000 gps per 10 (CL30) on the auction house. On face value, elixir makers will benefit while those who use said elixirs will see an order of magnitude increase in cost for the same value.

Cheers!

[Kitunenotsume]

I realize there is significant deference paid to P&P as an authoritative standard. Yet, whenever anyone recommends "nerfing" anything in game... I always ask myself, "who benefits?"

The average price of Elixirs have increased to ~19,000 gps per 10 (CL30) on the auction house. On face value, elixir makers will benefit while those who use said elixirs will see an order of magnitude increase in cost for the same value.

Cheers!

For comparison, a CL 30, 5th level Elixir costs 30 * 5 * 20 Gp to make individually, so each should run about 3000 GP for the brewer, and 30k for a stack of 10 (This cannot be reduced further by any means I know of, and is deducted from the brewer's gold values at time of creation).

19k for a stack of 10 implies that a brewer is losing 11k on the sale, before the 10% loss from using Mudds (for a total of 12,900 GP loss per stack).

19k for a stack of 5, however, would mean that the brewer is profiting by 2,100 GP per stack and seems more likely.


In regards to your concerns is also relevant to examine why the use of such elixirs is so widespread and normative, which appears to be due to their known significant power compared to other options. Other knock-on effects include benefits to Stealth conflict (due to lower perpetual Spot/Listen scores from Druids and Detector characters), and reduced expected Will-saves in PVP.

[Rhifox]

I realize there is significant deference paid to P&P as an authoritative standard. Yet, whenever anyone recommends "nerfing" anything in game... I always ask myself, "who benefits?"

Developers. The amount of times we have to discuss or adjust balance simply because "what about Owl's Insight" is getting very tiring. This spell is broken and OP and it's time we realized it and fix it, instead of balancing everything else around it.

[Steve]

1 IG hour, 15 RL minutes. (Or similar timeframe as appropriate)

Clarified in initial post.

Well, as long as it can be Extended, I guess...why not (imho)?

However...please nerf everything else equally. Thank you. I'll see myself out....

[Dragonslayer]

I realize there is significant deference paid to P&P as an authoritative standard. Yet, whenever anyone recommends "nerfing" anything in game... I always ask myself, "who benefits?"

Developers. The amount of times we have to discuss or adjust balance simply because "what about Owl's Insight" is getting very tiring. This spell is broken and OP and it's time we realized it and fix it, instead of balancing everything else around it.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I have personal reasons why I wouldn't want to see Owl's Insight nerfed at all. However, if it is, 15 RL minutes seems way overboard for me, when other spells can last much longer than that at 1 min / CL. If it's nerfed to an hour, it should be a RL hour, imo (2 hours extended). Unless of course we also make the 1 min / CL spells last for only 15 seconds / CL.

Making it 15 minutes wouldn't nerf the spell and bring it into balance. It would nullify the spell completely and make it nearly useless.

[Kitunenotsume]

Making it 15 minutes wouldn't nerf the spell and bring it into balance. It would nullify the spell completely and make it nearly useless.

Pen and Paper Comparison
The pen and paper version has a duration of only 1 hour. By granting the spell a dramatically longer duration the overall save DCs of spells cast by Druids have become unusually high over pen and paper design.

Owl's Insight provides a +12 bonus to Wisdom. This correlates to a +8 stat over any other individual source commonly accessible to players (which caps at +4 usually), for a total of +4 to divine DCs, Monk stats, Will Saves, Wis Skills, and other such things. None of these are "Nearly useless", particularly as one of the few straight sources of a +4 DC boost for anything.

In a single 5th level spell, you get the only stat boost in the game that is literally only bounded by the engine's maximum stat limit (it would be +15 otherwise) and currently lasts practically all reset on a single cast. Other methods of parity could be to include spells that give +12 to each other stat for the entire server uptime, or removing it completely, both of which are rather absurd or undesirable in their own rights.

At 15-minutes, or 30 Extended if configured so, it would still provide a substantial DC boost to Divine casters, Monks, and all those skills, but in such a way to be limited (as it is in P&P) to a practical duration of a given task, long encounter, or short dungeon floor. It would be appropriate to cast immediately prior to a situation where it can be applicable, instead of the current "On login, lasts until reset".
Yes, 15 minutes would mean that other spells (such as the baseline +4 spells) would last longer than Owl's Insight, but that would put it properly into the position as a burst power buff.

[renshouj]

can't help but feel the problem isn't solely the spell, but the abundance of elixirs.

I don't mind a nerf, in fact I believe it's warranted. But 15 minutes is way too low considering the game we play. Druids aren't OP because of this spell. But other classes do get unreasonably strong because of it. IMO, if anything, the nerf should first come to the elixir version of the spell.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

If keeping the +12 boon :
Ramp the cost up 6x per elixir creation, cutting down overabundant usage from non druids.
Set the spell duration to the same of Bulls/Bears/Eagles/Cats at 1m/cL, permit meta extended use from the druid. That's at minimum one RL hour per cast from the druid.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Pen and Paper Comparison
The pen and paper version has a duration of only 1 hour. By granting the spell a dramatically longer duration the overall save DCs of spells cast by Druids have become unusually high over pen and paper design.

You wanted to bring P&P into this. Which means that if we reduce it to 15 minutes (1 hour server time) then we should also reduce the 1 min/CL to server time as well.

But here is the issue. We don't run dungeons in server time; we run them in real time.

We don't do DM events in server time. They are often slower than real time. Interactions which IRL would take a few seconds often end up taking minutes. 15 minute duration means that "oh, we see the bad guy and ward". Then the party speaks to the bad guy. By the time they get to fight the bad guy, the 15 minutes has passed and the ward is gone.

A good example; it took roughly 5 minutes in events recently just for someone to "Rush to aid [person] as soon as they saw them". It would have taken 2-3 seconds in real time. But in waiting for the action and waiting for the DM response to the action, it took roughly 100-150x longer.

So bringing something in line with server time completely negates the spell in DM events. It would make it a spell much like Oaken Resilience, which I have and is powerful, but I literally never, ever use it, because the cost is too great. (It can't be used while shifted, so one has to unshift, cast it, and reshift; meaning that it can't just be used on the fly, and ends up costing TWO shifts rather than the one it's supposed to. It also lasts only 10 minutes in Real Time, making it useless in most DM events.) The only time Oaken Resilience is actually useful is for dungeon bosses that you know are coming. This is what would happen if we brought Owl's Insight down to 15 minutes. It would still benefit only one situation (dungeon running) without benefitting any other situation.

I think 1 RL hour (2 extended) makes a lot more sense. It's still a huge nerf to the spell, but it doesn't nerf it into oblivion. It bring it to 1/8 of it's current duration; a compromise that I think is plausible for everyone.

Edited to add: I agree with the posts above mine. The issue doesn't necessarily seem to be the spell itself, but the cost/availability to classes that benefit from it far more than druids do. (I think spirit shaman also get it?)

Both classes that get it, to my knowledge, really need it for certain builds. Combined with Zen Archery, it actually allows druids to do a tiny bit of damage while not shifted, opening up the class to more options. Some spirit shaman builds are the same way. Reducing it to 15 minutes would make these builds unviable, and thus reduce the build options available to these classes.

[renshouj]

Pretty much fully agree with JAG's comment. As a druid player that also has (and literally almost never uses) Oaken resilience, it's a good example of how little 10-15 minutes actually is. In fact, I even have Oaken Friend, and also never use it.

Like I said before, I agree there should be a nerf of the spell, it is a tad too strong especially to non-druids. But nerfing it to 15 minutes, for example, is extreme and in fact the only thing it does to non-druids is it makes them have to buy more elixirs and spam them. I don't see it actually helping the health of the overall game. Mind you, I don't actually know what would be a good alternative, something that affects hits the elixir more than the actual spell, so do take my (very druidy) opinion with a grain of salt

[JustAnotherGuy]

I was going to edit my last post to add this, but as someone already posted another post, I'm adding it here. I looked at my druid's stats. He has Zen Archery, though he primarily fights shifted.

With Owl's Insight, his AB with a Longbow of Magic +4 is 41/36/31/26/21. That's with the +4 from the bow, and with a +15 WIS bonus. I'll admit that the 41AB isn't too poor. However, his damage? 1d8+4. Very subpar.

Throw on a scimitar instead, and he gets AB of 26/21/16/11/6. Not viable in most content. I could find a better AB scimitar, and get that up to 30 ish. But even then, the damage is still poor. 1d6+3 currently. At least that can get flame weapon for another 1d8 fire. But still not very good.

For my druid to do even the smallest amount of damage outside of shifting, he needs Owl's Insight. With Owl's Insight, his chance to land a blow is roughly equal to his chance to land a blow in dragon form, though his damage is still much, much less.