Bleeding Wound and DR

[chad878262]

thinking it through for balance of the existing server you have:

Bodyguard: Full Sneak progression and high BAB for 3 levels (no additional progression for 5 levels)
Blackguard: 3/10 progression (where 5/10 would be full progression) and high BAB with sneak dice coming at 4, 7 and 10
Ghost Faced Killer: 3/8 progression (2, 5, and 8 so technically you'd only have 4 sneak dice for 7 levels of full progression) with high bab
Wilderness Stalker: 3/10 progression (2, 6, 10) with high BAB.

There are also medium BAB classes that still don't get full progression such as Whirling Dervish (3/9 at 3, 6 and 9).

Invisible Blade gets High BAB, 4+INT modifier in skills, INT to AC and Feint Mastery (which is very good for applying sneak dice). For this you have to 'pay' with taking Weapon Focus (dagger or kukri), two weapon fighting and Feint (which requires Combat Expertise). Compare to Bodyguard (no feats required), Blackguard (Power Attack, Cleave), GFK (Improved Initiative, Power Attack) and WS (Track) and I think I would say giving Invisible Blade full sneak progression is not a balance concern. Wilderness Stalker grants +2 flat AC bonus (no INT required), Swift Tracker and Camouflage (perhaps the best QoL ability any sneak could ask for), GFK grants Ghost Step, Frightful Attack and Ghost Sight. Blackguard gives a summon, CHA to saves, a very useful saving throw malus Turn Undead and Smite.

Now Bodyguard is probably the most useful comparison since both are 5 levels. If we consider Bodyguard 3 grants 2d6 sneak dice and 10% movement speed buff while IB for 5 levels would grant 3d6 sneak dice alongside INT to AC and Feint Mastery I would say IB with full sneak progression would be a bit overtuned for that comparison. In addition, you have to also look at the ability to go something like R16/IB5/NWN3/WS6 (or GFK6) which would give BAB26 and 15d6 sneak dice (which is the same that a R30 would get).

So from my perspective if granting IB sneak dice I would probably just give them 1d6 or 2d6 progression (like at 3 and 5 or something). This is just my personal opinion though, there has been no staff discussion around changing invisible blade.

[SpookySkeleton]

Bleeding Wound (Ex): An invisible blade of 2nd level or higher who makes a successful dagger sneak attack can choose to deal a bleeding wound, sacrificing 1d6 points of the extra damage from the dagger sneak attack.

Good to note here, the bleeding wound in the PnP case is not simply 2, 4 or 6 damage over three rounds. The invisible blade gets regular sneak attack progression and can choose to forego using 1d6 of sneak damage and instead apply 1 damage over time (stackable) that only goes away when healed. This gives it a cool feeling of slowly bleeding your opponent out rather than killing them outright.

Not saying that is balanced -- but if we are speaking of giving regular sneak dice to invisible blade I feel like bleeding wound should somehow still get in there to make the class still have that flavor. Perhaps it could be something like low CON damage with a fort save? Or maybe acid damage, not sure if that would get around some of the DR on the server. I believe we could come up with a more fun answer to this than just replacing with regular sneak dice -- should the black box allow it.

[Tanlaus]

Bleeding Wound (Ex): An invisible blade of 2nd level or higher who makes a successful dagger sneak attack can choose to deal a bleeding wound, sacrificing 1d6 points of the extra damage from the dagger sneak attack.

Good to note here, the bleeding wound in the PnP case is not simply 2, 4 or 6 damage over three rounds. The invisible blade gets regular sneak attack progression and can choose to forego using 1d6 of sneak damage and instead apply 1 damage over time (stackable) that only goes away when healed. This gives it a cool feeling of slowly bleeding your opponent out rather than killing them outright.

Not saying that is balanced -- but if we are speaking of giving regular sneak dice to invisible blade I feel like bleeding wound should somehow still get in there to make the class still have that flavor. Perhaps it could be something like low CON damage with a fort save? Or maybe acid damage, not sure if that would get around some of the DR on the server. I believe we could come up with a more fun answer to this than just replacing with regular sneak dice -- should the black box allow it.

That description sounds a lot like the arterial strike feat...

What if IB granted arterial strike at 1 in lieu of sneak attack then regular sneak dice at 3 and 5? Maybe a compromise between flavor and balance.

[Steve]

What if IB granted arterial strike at 1 in lieu of sneak attack then regular sneak dice at 3 and 5? Maybe a compromise between flavor and balance.

It’s an interesting suggestion! But I wonder: can Bleeding Wound feat(s) be turned off in the PrC?

The issue still is that Bleeding does not bypass DR/-, as it likely should. I’m assuming that Arterial Strike bleeding does?

[Tanlaus]

What if IB granted arterial strike at 1 in lieu of sneak attack then regular sneak dice at 3 and 5? Maybe a compromise between flavor and balance.

It’s an interesting suggestion! But I wonder: can Bleeding Wound feat(s) be turned off in the PrC?

The issue still is that Bleeding does not bypass DR/-, as it likely should. I’m assuming that Arterial Strike bleeding does?

Arterial strike does not bypass DR. Adding the feat while offering 2d6 regular sneak attack to the PRC would give them the option of applying a bleed where it might be productive to do so, but doesn’t lock them into losing their damage boost against a large percentage of epic encounters.

[Steve]

I think there are even more mobs with DR 2/- than with DR 5/- or 6/-. So it places and Bleeds, vanilla or custom, in an unusable position, no matter what is done, unless DR/- is removed overall and SPECIFIC DR feats are added back (making for variety). But I'm not holding my breath on that!

Nonetheless, I'd say Arterial (2 bleed) + 2d6 Sneak Attack is better than Bleeding Wound III (6 bleed), considering the amount of DR/- out there. With most SA builds smartly getting Epic Precision, it would be a benefit.

[Theodore01]

Assuming Arterial Strike still uses that awful clone mechanics - it's a pain to use.


Why does the class need a change at all ?
As Weaponmasters are completely useless against crit immune - this class still offers much more for less investment.

[SpookySkeleton]

Did anyone ever put together a list of monsters with DR? Are those DR values all universal?

if they are universal DR, like they have no way to bypass the DR, maybe weaknesses could be added to make it so bleed damage is still possible with the right equipment. I'm not sure if this works -- but the wiki seems to believe that if you are holding the weapon that bypasses an enemies DR when the bleed damage takes effect, then the bleed will also bypass the DR. Might warrant some tests.

Why does the class need a change at all ?

I think the class would only need to change if we all agree that damage reduction preventing the bleed damage is indeed a bug. At the very least maybe a footnote on the class ability when leveling up could be nice so people aren't misled.

[Tanlaus]

Did anyone ever put together a list of monsters with DR? Are those DR values all universal?

if they are universal DR, like they have no way to bypass the DR, maybe weaknesses could be added to make it so bleed damage is still possible with the right equipment. I'm not sure if this works -- but the wiki seems to believe that if you are holding the weapon that bypasses an enemies DR when the bleed damage takes effect, then the bleed will also bypass the DR. Might warrant some tests.

Why does the class need a change at all ?

I think the class would only need to change if we all agree that damage reduction preventing the bleed damage is indeed a bug. At the very least maybe a footnote on the class ability when leveling up could be nice so people aren't misled.

I don’t think it’s so much a bug as function of the server’s design. DR seems to be a fairly common way of balancing opponents in epic levels.

The question really is, are IBs somewhat broken because of the limited utility of bleed damage or do their other strengths, high BAB, skill points, feint mastery, and int bonus to AC make the class already quite desirable even if bleeding damage is hit and miss?

I personally have not played an IB build through epics so I can’t offer an informed opinion.

[Steve]

Why does the class need a change at all ?

Oh Theo...! I introduce you to Chad.

[chad878262]

well to be fair Steve I was just indicating what I would do, which would most likely be 1d6 sneak progression. However, my preference would likely be if there were a way to make bleeding wound work like Expose Weakness and ignore DR. There are already plenty of classes that progress sneak dice and having a unique ability is more fun IMO. Regardless all of this is just arbitrary musings and should in no way be taken as a staff decision or approach.

And let's be honest there are still PLENTY of reasons to take Invisible Blade even if there are no changes made... It is as fantastic a class for sneak attack characters as Duelist is for INT/DEX based melee characters.

[Steve]

I've been searching intently to find some source that states that Bleeding Wound should bypass Damage Resistance, or not, and so far I'm not finding the "holy grail."

What I have found is two things that conflict:

The bleeding can only be stopped by a DC 15 Heal check or the application of any cure spell or other healing spell (heal, healing circle, and so on). Creatures immune to sneak attack damage are immune to bleeding wounds as well.

Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective).

Honestly, I just thing that straight DR/- is a lazy way to make mobs "tougher." And it the end, it just particularly ruins certain Class/PrC perks, because of it. I'm not blaming anyone!!!

[Blackman D]

probably having one of the older IBs on the server id have to say yes DR is annoying but nothing that particularly hinders my hin, who is a (relatively) low damage output build if we are talking per hit, per round PTWF makes up for it a good bit, even if IB bleeds dont work - which is a good chunk of her damage - i wouldnt say she is really crippled until she is fighting DR and crit immune mobs, so undead, then her damage output per hit drops down to single digits

i dont see that as needing a buff tho, i see that as maybe she shouldnt f with undead

regarding DR, i wouldnt say its lazy especially with all the different types of DR because one thing you have to consider is how many mobs are in the MM and if the mobs on the server are built anywhere close to how they should be, and typically aside from inflated hp, all the properties tend to match up and another thing you have to consider is there are different DR abilities that are actually the same like 5/- , soak 1 and hardness 5, all of which ignore the first 5 pts of damage

there is nothing wrong with DR itself, the use of DR and the arbitrary inflation of hp though is probably a more problematic combination

[Steve]

Just to be clear, I meant universal DR/- Application was lazy, and using specific DR would be better for variety and tactics for players going up against mobs. Of course, unless the MM did state the mob should have universal DR/-.

[zhazz]

I've spoken with Valefort about this issue before, and unfortunately it's one of those black box things that cannot be changed.

Possibly, and I am only speculating here, it would be possible to make a new custom feat, with a custom script, that is then given to IB - similar to the rework Expose Weakness received. It is, however, likely a lot of work to fix something that very few players actually use. Whether that is because of the DR issue, or other factors, is difficult to tell.

That being said, I would prefer if the feat could be fixed, since it doesn't make sense that the hardness of one's skin makes hemorrhaging less severe. Just like the strength of the concrete doesn't matter once the dam has a hole in it.