BGTSCC Discord BGTSCC IRC

Server Address: game.bgtscc.net
25/96
Last counter update:
2018-08-15 13:08:39



All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:03 pm 
Offline
Recognized Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Posts: 4723
Location: Paradise in GMT +1
For example, Northander Hewing. Is it only custom BGTSCC combat feats that deactivate when Polymorphing, or also Power Attack/Combat Expertise/etc, as well?

What is the line between Feats—a learned ability—that should or should not "crossover" to a new Form? Is there even a clear line?

Cheers.

_________________
Storybuilding.

|> Hurgon WyrmstoneKraak Helzak Ambassador & Voice of the Deep Mountain
|> Preceptor Phasorin ZauPurification through Fire
|> Henryk Urde — Swords of Justice



Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:22 pm 
Offline
Quality Control
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:43 am
Posts: 3994
Location: IL
honestly monstrous creature actually have access to normal feats but players do not have access to monstrous feats

a creature can use power attack or IPA but maybe wouldnt use something like feint or CE/ICE

but kinda hard to say if it should be allowed or not, i wouldnt care if PA/IPA crossed over at least, others get kinda iffy

_________________
everyone is evil till proven otherwise


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:53 pm 
Offline
Recognized Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Posts: 4723
Location: Paradise in GMT +1
Let's say IPA crossover...that's extra 12 dmg on Fire Giant, cause it's 2-handed sword fighter.

It also has 34 STR (if I remember correctly). So with Northlander Hewing, that would also be an extra 12 dmg, but the APR would reduce to only 3 and with a -2 AB and -2 AC (and the AC on Fire Giant is already low). IPA has a -6 AB...so, there ARE pluses and minuses with either Combat Feat.

Sembian Fencing, for example, would reduce the APR to 2, but give +8 if the Build has 6 APR naturally. That could be very good for the Devil forms which lack AB, but damage wouldn't get any better with less attacks really...unless it can't hit squat without Sembian, so Sembian would be pretty great to have, for that Shape.

Anyway, I'm just fishing here for how it is or isn't seem as OP, having Combat Feats apply, in general or specifically.

The question does effect my SS shifter dwarf, on whom I built with Northlander Hewing. When unshifted, I do enjoy seeing the +7 extra dmg based on his buffed STR, and I do wonder if such a feat is a "mental" ability, thus likely to be used in a Shape, or somehow OOC simply OP, and thus it just can't be used.

_________________
Storybuilding.

|> Hurgon WyrmstoneKraak Helzak Ambassador & Voice of the Deep Mountain
|> Preceptor Phasorin ZauPurification through Fire
|> Henryk Urde — Swords of Justice



Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:51 pm
Posts: 330
I encountered this week 2 mages with shapechange tactics. One an aroal(?) elf form (longbow) the other switched between Frost and Fire Giant.

I was playing a powerbuild crossbower with manyshot. The elf longbow form did a lot more dmg than me, since she had more shots and a lot of different base dmg. Plus she was full buffed with wards Mirror Image, IMA and so on. Probably also INT focused for good DC's too. I couldnt compete with her tough i only was build as crossbower and weak on AC,saves and so on.

The dmg output from the Frost/Fire Giant mage was between 35 and 40 + with 80 + crits. Also fully buffed with arcane wards. Something i cant reach on many melee powerbuilds.

They said there buffed ac was between 48-50 as far as i remember. lvl 17 and 19 ? something many epics dont have.

Mechanically the Polymorphing is OP right now. Mechanically no need to allow the CombatStances like NH to be activated in Shapechange form. You can already use the combat modes CE/ICE and PA/IPA in those forms.

RP wise you should be able to use those Combat Stances in most forms. As Monk AC also should be added in all forms. Most forms should also be able to cast spells normally, at least all with still spell metamagics.

But i guess its more a question of mechanics.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:57 pm
Posts: 167
You can currently activate any combat mode from the modal bar while in a shape, but nothing else will work.

I have ICE on my shifter mage and I can activate it no problem. IPA should work fine as well. And I imagine, rapid shot would too for a bow using form.

Although I don't see how the arboreal elf could beat out a powerbuild crossbow user, given that it has no access to manyshot (...unless the OOBI automatic manyshot thing works? In which case, never mind)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:51 pm
Posts: 330
My crossbower is reduced to 3 attacks per round. That elf form has most and a lot of extra elemental dmg on each arrow. Maybe the automatic Manyshot option is also avaible in the form.

Overall i guess the wizard spell list is better with selfbuffing for polymorph than the spiritshaman spell list.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:09 am 
Offline
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 12:04 am
Posts: 3447
Location: Terra Australis
Automatic manyshot operates as long as it is toggled on in the player options and your character is utilising a ranged weapon. The only thing that would prevent it is if Shapechange somehow removed Manyshot from your character's feat list (which i do not think it does?)

_________________
[New Player's Guide to Wizardry]
[BGTSCC Complete Arcane Spell List]

Mae yr Machshikhah - ???? [Hiatus]
Schezalle - The Black Claws Baeqeshel [Bio] [Stocklist] [RP] [Active]
Aeili Azenci - Baelnorn of Mystra [Deceased]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:51 pm
Posts: 330
I dont know if that mage had manyshot or not. But just look at the dmg output : 1d8+1d6+5+9 and additional a bow+4 with mighty 8 (reaches +7 in polymorph form with buff) and even aligned to break DR.

My crossbow is EB+2,Mighty 4, Ammunition+2 additional +12 dmg from crossbow mastery if buffed up.
Can hit with manyshot but -8 AB to the attack,so i dont hit every time. I will hit better with Manyshot and my Dmg will get a bit better with levels. I also have DA which arent count in as we were farming xvarts and just shot them from afar.

But for that lvl range (15-19) the shapechange form seemed superior, same for those giant melee forms.

Edit: Shapechange can even add elemental dmg on your weapon to it (assume 1d6-1d10 extra elemental dmg, dont know if flame/frost weapon are additionally counted in)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:08 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:57 pm
Posts: 167
Hendrak wrote:
I dont know if that mage had manyshot or not. But just look at the dmg output : 1d8+1d6+5+9 and additional a bow+4 with mighty 8 (reaches +7 in polymorph form with buff) and even aligned to break DR.

My crossbow is EB+2,Mighty 4, Ammunition+2 additional +12 dmg from crossbow mastery if buffed up.
Can hit with manyshot but -8 AB to the attack,so i dont hit every time. I will hit better with Manyshot and my Dmg will get a bit better with levels. I also have DA which arent count in as we were farming xvarts and just shot them from afar.

But for that lvl range (15-19) the shapechange form seemed superior, same for those giant melee forms.

Edit: Shapechange can even add elemental dmg on your weapon to it (assume 1d6-1d10 extra elemental dmg, dont know if flame/frost weapon are additionally counted in)


Temp. item buffs get wiped when you shapechange, but existing weapon properties can carry. Using the Blushing Mermaid throwing axes can get you +1d8 fire or bludgeoning damage (the onhit stat drains dont work). Flame weapon doesn't work on bows, does it? So that wouldn't work.

I have a shapechange mage and she does make use of the Arboreal Elf shape, but she has no ranged feats to actually back it up. Now I'm wondering if it would legitimately be worthy. I guess it really does depend on whether the auto-manyshot works or not.

The fire giant does hit pretty hard, as an aside, but it also doesn't have very strong AC (I had 45 AC with full mage buffs, greater transmute focus, and a druid giving me tortoise shell). So I think that one's got a fine tradeoff.

But, if nothing else, the shapes don't scale at all with levels beyond whatever feats you can muster to help out. The big stat spikes seem less impressive as you go into epic levels. Although you're guaranteed to have a potentially high AC in a few of the forms, so long as you can avoid getting dispelled.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:58 pm
Posts: 263
I was going to log onto my Ranger to test this out, but apparently Rangers don't get the auto-manyshot feature. So, at least for Rangers, you can't use Manyshot while polymorphed because you've only got the clicky.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:57 pm
Posts: 167
FWIW this is sort of what you'd be looking to work with as the 'base' by 21. Again, my mage has no feats to support ranged combat (and I made an error with the direction I took her overall build, but she works well as a proof of concept). She does have epic transmutation focus, so factor that in on the AC. Build mix is 10 wizard/3 dragonslayer/8 eldritch knight, with augment form taken.

Image

So uh, yeah. If the OOBI manyshot works...mayhaps that should be turned off for shapechange? :P


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:42 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:58 pm
Posts: 263
Is that 1d6 electrical from a buff or from Arboreal Elf? Either way, *dang.* I see you're using the Mad Sorcerer's axes there and the result is painful.

I think the sheet needs to be taken with a grain of salt - I find the game often reports bows as 2-handed weapons for STR-based damage on the character sheet but applies it the way it's supposed to be (1xSTR bonus, not 1.5). Same applies for halflings wielding a sling with no shield.

Still, if that were allowed to use manyshot... *Oof.* I imagine the result is very painful. Tack on 4 levels of fighter and practiced spellcaster later on for Ranged Weapon Mastery + Weapon Spec and the damage would be terrifying if you built to be an archer shapeshifter. And those axes make it very cheap to get online. And if manyshot *did* work...

Ouch.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:44 am 
Offline
Forum Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 12:04 am
Posts: 3447
Location: Terra Australis
All players can turn on Auto-Manyshot if they have the feat; it has nothing at all to do with class.

1. Right Click your toon and select the Character Details Tab.
Image

2. Select Combat Related Options.
Image

3. Select Ranged Combat Options.
Image

4. Select Auto-use Manyshot -> ON.
Image

5. Profit.

As for the elf polymorph form, seems that Arboreal Archer's bow needs a tad bit of the nerf bat :P

_________________
[New Player's Guide to Wizardry]
[BGTSCC Complete Arcane Spell List]

Mae yr Machshikhah - ???? [Hiatus]
Schezalle - The Black Claws Baeqeshel [Bio] [Stocklist] [RP] [Active]
Aeili Azenci - Baelnorn of Mystra [Deceased]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:51 am 
Offline
Recognized Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Posts: 4723
Location: Paradise in GMT +1
When Shaping, and if the Form has Manyshot/ICE/IPA, I have yet to see that then show up on the Mode Bar, in order to activate. One cannot activate Feats from the Sheet or Taskbar while shifted, nor is there Right Clicking either.

Still...if vanilla Combat Modes work, but custom ones don't... :?

_________________
Storybuilding.

|> Hurgon WyrmstoneKraak Helzak Ambassador & Voice of the Deep Mountain
|> Preceptor Phasorin ZauPurification through Fire
|> Henryk Urde — Swords of Justice



Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Should Combat Feats be Active in Shapechange/Polymorph?
Unread postPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:10 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:57 pm
Posts: 167
Tsidkenu wrote:
As for the elf polymorph form, seems that Arboreal Archer's bow needs a tad bit of the nerf bat :P


It's worth pointing out that the Erinyes form is identical, save that the bow brings fire damage instead of electric. So that should also get looked at.

Or, the forms could be broken to not be compatible with manyshot somehow. On a hit per hit basis, they'd be inferior to ranged builds then.

@Khazrak: the shape's default weapon is a +8 mighty, +4 EB, +1d6 electric damage longbow.

@Steve: I have ICE in my mage's build and she can activate it in all forms, but I've yet to see any of the supposed granted feats show up either. Then again, not every form seems to even be merging gear properly yet, so I imagine there are some kinks to work out.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group