Feinter after update

[chad878262]

You could forego the Feint route and try to gain SA elsewhere... Consider:

- Deadly defense (not currently working last I tested) - gives you d4 bonus damage with finesse weapons while in Parry or CE mode.

- Sembian Fencing - Fewer attacks, but you gain AB and Damage (2 / attack lost). Useful if you aren't getting enough hits or are having problems with DR. If you have 6 attacks / round this will give 8 AB and Damage! Yes you only get two attacks, but both are likely to hit at least. The DEX bonus can also add to attack and AC dependent upon the type of armor and if you are already capped.

Athkatlan Tripirate - can be used alongside Sembian Fencing, especially since being limited to 2 attacks / round there is nothing extra lost by using this. Gives extra AB and dodge AC

Lunge - +5 free damage once / turn and if you have high tumble or spring attack the AoO doesn't really effect you.

Pommel Strike - Opponent denied DEX AC = Sneak Attack! Useable once every two rounds and opponent gets a reflex save vs. DC 10 + 1/2 your total AB. Also the enemy has to make a Fort save vs. DC 10 + STR modifier (increases by one at character level 15, 20, 25 and 30)... You may not get the Daze effect that often with a DEX/INT focused build, but your enemies should fail the reflex save fairly often (total AB 44/2=22+10 would be a DC 32, for instance)

If going heavy Rogue you could also look in to Blinding Strike, which can blind the target for d4 rounds if target fails fortitude save vs. DC 10 + 1/2 your rogue levels + 1/5 your character level + 1 every 5 Rogue levels (so if you take 16 Rogue levels, at level 30 your DC is 10 + 8 + 6 + 3 = 27.

Point being, as you can see there are multiple ways to land sneak attacks and gain AB / Damage with the new melee feats. Not sure all of them work, but most did when I tested in QC JEGs / Server 2 and I assume the rest were fixed in some way. In any case with free RCR maybe a good time to see if any of these fit your concept and work for what you are trying to do mechanically. You could always still also have feint, but against a High BAB spotter you could try some of the other 'tricks' in your bag.

[Kobamw]

Thanks for all the ideas. They basically confirm my thinking that if I want to do damage by means other than raw strength I need to take on or more from the mentioned sources (swashbuckler, duelist, bard, etc.). I actually tried to play several, if not most of the mentioned builds.

In fact, I tried so many, and RCRed so many times, that it took me some 5 years to reach level 20 I still have some 10 “pre final” builds in NWN2 DB, using swashbuckler, duelist, bard, frenzied berserker and so on. At the end of the day, I went on with my feinter build which is probably the weakest of them all, but it was the nicest to play for me. And so I come to a decision that I will either go with current build of 2-weapon fighting Fighter 4 / AK 10 / Bodyguard 3 / Rogue 13 or substitute fighter with Guild Thief. I still can’t make up my mind between the two and there is a couple of topics which may help me decide:

- Deadly defense, Sembian Fencing, Athkatlan Tripirate, Blinding strike - I think these are not playable yet, right?

- Epic fighter feats - do you mean like weapon specialization feats which work only for one selected weapon?

- Epic feats - both builds already have epic prowess, expose weakness, epic precision. The fighter build has 2 free slots (and already has improved 2-weapon fighting), so what to take? The Guild Thief build also has 2 slots free, but has no 2-weapon fighting feats yet, so would it be a total waste to take them in the epics?

[chad878262]

Deadly defense, Sembian Fencing, Athkatlan Tripirate, Blinding strike - I think these are not playable yet, right?

Sembian Fencing and Atgkatalan Tripirate work to the best of my knowledge (and the effects stack), Deadly defense and Blinding strike do not currently work last.I tested (and I tested deadly defense extensively)

Epic fighter feats - do you mean like weapon specialization feats which work only for one selected weapon?

Not sure what you're asking, but if you go fighter you should definitely be taking the weapon focus/specialization feats as well as melee mastery.

Epic feats - both builds already have epic prowess, expose weakness, epic precision. The fighter build has 2 free slots (and already has improved 2-weapon fighting), so what to take? The Guild Thief build also has 2 slots free, but has no 2-weapon...

Generally taking any TWF feat in epics (besides PTWF) is sub optimal. Either get them before epic or don't get them. As I said earlier they should only be taken if you're getting an extra attack in the first flurry...so if you have 5 attacks/round it could be worth it to get improved twf.since the 7th attack gets you a third attack in the first flurry. However, I'd find a way to get those feats pre epic. When in doubt great strength/dexterity is perfectly fine to take in epics.

[Dawrf]

Another feat to look at is the Shield Bash, or Shield Slam more specifically. http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=49036

I am curious, does Shield Slam still make targets susceptible to sneak attacks? (It used to be the case before.)

Because, it might be possible to make some Strength Based Fighter/Rogue/Guild Thief and get all those other feats on top of Feint to deal sneak attack damage even if one of the methods fails. (Also, shield AC is a nice thing to have.)

[Theodore01]

Deadly defense do not currently work last.I tested (and I tested deadly defense extensively)

What is the problem with deadly defense ?
As the d4 extra damage shows in the char sheat (,but as d4 bludgeon damage for a slashing weapon).

[Kobamw]

Sembian Fencing and Atgkatalan Tripirate work to the best of my knowledge (and the effects stack)

I just logged in, created a toon and tried to take these feats. They were not available. As quality control team member you may have them, but for us poor commoners they seem to be beyond reach I assume there is no ETA for them go live, so building with them in mind may be a little risky.

Shield slam for landing sneak aatacks looks very interesting. It seems very complementary to feint (against weak spot) and pommel strike (against low dex). I'l need to figure if I like it RP-wise, though

As for epic fighter feats - these were mentioned as a good source of damage without specifics, making it sounds as something obvious, basics of the basics. I'm no expert in epic feats and my knowledge about epics is mostly paper knowledge So, getting to the point really - is there a feat that my fighter build, not focused on any weapon as it is, could take to increase damage? Other than great strength, that is.

And more generally, for both builds, what epic feats would you all advise? The builds stil have 2 free slots.

[Steve]

If you want more reliable dmg from Fighter, you'll need to go Fighter 12 / Rogue 11 / AK 4 / Bodyguard 3. I played this split as a ITWF katana build, using mith breastplate, to great success. But your desire for high Skill Points and done CHA will suffer to make it work.

[Dawrf]

As for epic fighter feats - these were mentioned as a good source of damage without specifics, making it sounds as something obvious, basics of the basics. I'm no expert in epic feats and my knowledge about epics is mostly paper knowledge So, getting to the point really - is there a feat that my fighter build, not focused on any weapon as it is, could take to increase damage? Other than great strength, that is.

There is a sort of half-way option there, the three Weapon Mastery feats. One for Slashing, Piercing, and Bludgeoning, and each grants +2 AB and Damage to their types of weapons. You need at least 12 levels of fighter to qualify for these feats, and they do not stack with each other.

And the other option is: Power Attack -3 AB for +3 Damage, Improved Power Attack -6 AB for +6 Damage. (The damage is doubled if you wield your weapon in both hands.)

A Fighter heavy build will grant you bonus feats to get what you want, Rogue throws in the skill points and access to skills on top of the sneak attack dice, and if you go for a Fighter 14/Rogue 16 build, you can level up as any race and avoid multi-classing experience penalty. You can even avoid getting the Able learner feat.

Level 1: Rogue 1
Level 2: Fighter 1
Level 3: Rogue 2
Level 4:....

...

Level 27:....
Level 28: Fighter 14
Level 29: Rogue 15
Level 30: Rogue 16 <- You now have multi-classing experience penalty. But you are at level 30.

And if you got strength to back it up, and feats to spare, also get both Knockdown and Improved Knockdown. (The opponent lies prone for one round, you don't get sneak attacks, but the opponent doesn't do anything for one round if successful.) (Disarm feats could be taken too, for PvP, but with BAB 26 and lacking Weapon focus feats might not let you disarm the opponents you want to disarm.)

I'll need to figure if I like it RP-wise, though.

But as for role-playing wise, you would be someone that is not beyond using any 'underhanded trick' to get the advantage. But beyond that, you have enough skills to invest and role-play almost whatever you want.

[chad878262]

I just logged in, created a toon and tried to take these feats. They were not available. As quality control team member you may have them, but for us poor commoners they seem to be beyond reach

Best of my knowledge these were not turned off and others have posted about these feats, did you make sure the requirements were meet? If so please post in the bugs thread.

What is the problem with deadly defense ?
As the d4 extra damage shows in the char sheat (,but as d4 bludgeon damage for a slashing weapon).

It wasn't working when I tested it, but it's possible Rasael fixed it and I missed the post, which is awesome! Did you try it with both combat expertise and party modes?

[thids]

Shield slam requires a moderately high strength modifier to be reliable. So unless you are already building a str based character, the investment of 3 feats is too high IMO.

[chad878262]

OK, so this is just a concept as I haven't built in game and all these new feats make the builder much less reliable... However, it seems interesting (to me at least) since it uses a LOT of the new feats. AC should be ok wearing no armor with a +4 AC bracers or clothing, or mage armor/IMA wand. 2 attacks / round shouldn't be an issue since you have a lot of bonuses to damage for those attacks. Issue is lack of feats, but perhaps some of these can be granted as bonus feats to Swashbuckler which would help a lot to be able to replace Fighter with Whirling Dervish (for skill focus tumble and parry). Also not really certain Duelist adds a lot here since you could possibly wear light armor (Mithral Breast Plate) to gain similar AC, but for the concept the class does make sense. Some time this week I will try and build it in game to see how it looks. It's very different then the initial request, but I think fits the character concept... Tiefling or Air Genasi would be better race, but since Koba is half-elf I left that in place. ICE would have been nice, but feats are at a premium to get one hander, etc. (listed in the build info)

http://nwn2db.com/build/?239152

[Dawrf]

Shield slam requires a moderately high strength modifier to be reliable. So unless you are already building a str based character, the investment of 3 feats is too high IMO.

Shield Bash,
Shield Charge,
Shield Slam,
(+ Agile Shield Fighter to lower the Shield Bash AB penalty.)


When it comes to Feinter builds, it seems there are three options:

1) Dexterity and Intelligence builds:
[*]Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting
[*]Combat Insight (+ Insightful Strike)
[*]Hide in Plain Sight

Pros:
+ Large number of attacks, which is a lot of sneak attack damage on a successful feint
+ Can HiPS if need be, in the case your Feint doesn't work
+ These builds tend to have higher Sneak Attack dice total

Cons:
- Low damage per hit. (Even with 2 x Intelligence modifier to damage)
- AC can be a problem. (Solved with UMD and PRCs)
- Critical hit immune foes are a problem before Epic Precision


2) Strength and Full-plate builds:
[*]High strength
[*]Full-plate and shield for AC
[*]Pommel Strike (Free feat for all?)
[*]Shield Slam (Another way to deal sneak attacks)
[*]Improved Power Attack
[*]Knockdown

Pros:
+ Every point of strength increases both AB and Damage
+ Full-plate and a shield are an easy source of AC
+ You can go two-handed and increase your damage output
+ Technically, you can attempt to Pommel Strike and/or Shield Slam when Feint fails
+ Your damage output is decent even without your sneak attack dice

Cons:
- Lower sneak attack dice total
- Cannot HiPS
- Fewer attacks



3) Caster:
[*]You can cast spells, thus Feint is just for flavor.

[Kobamw]

Best of my knowledge these were not turned off and others have posted about these feats, did you make sure the requirements were meet? If so please post in the bugs thread.

The BGTSCC wiki says the requirement is Dex 13+. I created fighter toon with Dex 14 and they were not available at creation. Out of combat styles I think only Chiontar Seagull was available.

And more generally, for both builds, what epic feats would you all advise? The builds stil have 2 free slots.

I take it my builds are beyond hope as nobody even tried to discuss epic feats for them

[Theodore01]

Just made a char with athkatlan triparite and sembian fenceing ingame.

not sure at which level athkatlan triparite was available,
but sembian fenceing was available at lv21 (i think it was an epic feat, but not totally sure)

[Kobamw]

On a broadly related matters - I wanted to ask about new lore/knowledge skills and appraise (creature) feat. Lore skills overhaul is the reason why need to RCR even if I keep my build essentially intact.

Along the RP lines of being "educated" - what would be the number of skill points I should alocate to each field to be novice/knowledgeable/expert? Anyone seen any DM guidelines for that? Like exemplary DCs and so on? Should I stick to PnP rules? I tried to google that, but found nothing useful...

As for "Appraise" feat - I understand it is mostly for the disguise skill. As far as I know it describes what you believe is the race and gender of the PC or mob. The question is: will it give me some more information about mobs if I have many points invested in, say, dungeoneering or nature knowledge? In PnP there is a general guideline of 10+HD of the opponent to learn its weaknesses. Does it work in here? Again, it's likely wrong place to ask this questions, but I looked for that in server update threads and found nothing...