Feinter after update

[Kobamw]

Hello everyone!

Like many others I currently spend most of my “playing” time figuring out the build of my character after the recent update. I’ve had my share of thinking about how to rebuild it after RCR and would like to ask for some support.

The basic idea behind the character is:
- educated, i.e., many skills and skill points
- not a real fighter but may (should?) stand his ground at least a little
- fighting skills (if any) rather for one-on-one combat - his not a field soldier or a general
- rather single-weapon fighter
- knowledge and intelligence supplement moderate (mediocre?) fighting skills
- not a ranger, but he travels a lot so he knows this and that about wilderness and dungeoneering
- not a HIPSter
- not a caster (but educated a little about magic)

All in all it’s a “jack of all trades, master of none” type. In terms of game mechanics the idea is to be at least a little good in everything (HP, AC, AB, damage, all saves, etc.). No min-maxing means that on all fronts he lags behind specialised builds, though. Below is the link to the current build.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?190346

It’s a two-weapon fighter because of how Feint works in NWN2. In PnP Feint gives you 1 sneak attack only and that’s why the build idea is about single weapon. On BGTSCC Feint gives sneak attack for the whole round. It’s better to invest one feat into two-weapon fighting and effectively double the sneak attack dice, rather than add just 1d6 of sneak attack. It follows that mobs reflect that and have lots of HPs, so fighting with one weapon is sub-optimal.

With the update the situation changed because of 2 new free feats: lunge and pommel strike. They both seem to grant sneak attacks in the next flurry, not the whole round. It’s closer to PnP version and makes fighting with 2 weapons useless when using them. So I get back to create a build with a single weapon. Having the current build as starting point, I started thinking to simply strip it of fighter levels as I don’t need two-weapon fighting an feint feats. Instead I would simply increase number of rogue levels. So, instead of feats I get lots of skill points, 2 more sneak attack dice, 1 more rogue special ability and no XP penalty. I also reduced dexterity (no need for 15/17 as there are no 2-weapon fighting feats) and increased constitution to regain the hit points lost due to lack of fighter levels.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?238373

When I made this build I immediately felt like cheating. In PnP you need Feint to get sneak attacks. I don’t like to use builds that cannot be recreated in PnP. And this one is based essentially on proprietary BGTSCC feats. So, I thought of adding Feint just to sleep well at night It’s also nice diversification, because pommel strike will not always work (requires failed reflex save by a mob) and lunge has 60 seconds cooldown. I still won’t be using Feint often, because landing successful Feint on level 20+ is a rarity.

I made room for Feint by replacing 4 levels of Rogue with Guild Thief. Sneak attack dice don’t change, but there’s lower number of skill points. Actually, skill points take a big hit, because I need to invest skills to enable Guild Thief and I need to max out bluff to use Feint. As a flavour I also get bluff and diplomacy bonus and, last but not least, 10% discount on store transactions for a merchant PC

http://nwn2db.com/build/?237953

So, the conclude this longish post, I really don’t know which way to go after the update. All the alternative builds have their (relative) strengths:
- original has 2-weapon fighting which is also useful while flanking
- second one has a lot of skill points and 3 rogue special abilities, but no Feint
- last one seems the weakest, but has the most flavour

I would be very grateful for any feedback and suggestions. I don’t need to change my existing build, but maybe it could be improved...? And if I change my build I don’t want to nerf it any more - it’s already difficult enough I’ll certainly RCR because of the lore skill overhaul, so it’s a good opportunity to polish up my PC

[Steve]

I have a single weapon Feinter. I also choose to go with very high INT, using Combat Insight, and high AB classes.

At Level 30, his avg. DMG with SA is 80 per hit. The Toon has 6 attacks per round, and with high BAB, the expected avg. is 3 x per round = 240 dmg. This is including Crits, which are at 17–20 range, and because of Epic fighter feats and very high INT and 1.5 two handed fighting.

Against SA immune, crit immune, he still does 30–40 per hit, which is not bad, considering his AC is 53 (with max gear, that I happen to have).

Also, his Bluff is 40 natural, and with gear 60 at Level 30.

All that said, you are better off going TWF, and do whatever you can to raise your Bluff score. All those 3 builds you posted seem low for Bluffing. In addition, Epic Precision is a must.

[chad878262]

Hi Koba, first I want to just post some general stuff in regards to sneak attack...

When you SA from stealth only the first flurry lands SA, in this manner TWF is huge, but only if you go all the way to PTWF (still can help, but considerations should be made). Up to 6 attacks/rnd = 2 attacks in the first flurry, so in your original build TWF moving you to 7 attacks helps because you get 3 atks in that first flurry instead of 2. However, getting a 4th attack in the first flurry doesn't occur until you get to a 10th attack, even with Greater TWF you would only hit 9, so there is no further benefit to SA past TWF. If you move below 26 BAB you lose an attack so ITWF is needed to get to 7 in order to have 3 in the first flurry.

Feint grants denies DEX to AC for the entire round, meaning all attacks are SA. Therefore TWF/ITWF/GTWF/PTWF benefits you in the sense that all attacks for that round should land as sneak attacks. However, since Flurries do not matter, even having 5 or 6 attacks with no TWF still will land as SA.

None of your builds are 'optimized', but I don't think any of them will give you too hard a time playing. I actually think the middle one is the least optimal due to level split (17 rogue levels sticks out as not optimal for instance). The last one with Guild Thief does seem to be fine, fit the RP and give you several paths to land your SA dice. The biggest issue I see with most of your builds is your AC, unless you already have an enchanted MFP or you survive on Wands of Improved Mage Armor. With no HiPS you have no way to avoid damage once you've engaged and as primarily a rogue you're a bit squishy when fighting toe-to-toe (which seems to be ok with you based on the RP you mention). Have you considered reducing STR, adding Swashbuckler 5 (remove guildthief and go Rogue 11/Bodyguard5 maybe?) You could then gain more skills, have a more intelligent fighter and get Combat Insight for double INT bonus. (asSteve discussed.

Hope this helps.

[Kobamw]

Thanks for all the comments and advice! Below are some of my additional thoughts and questions:

• Epic precision and expose weakness are a must and are included in all variants of the build – without them these builds would be nearly unplayable solo.
• 30-40 damage per hit against sneak immune creatures indicates -> some 30 damage from sneak attack itself -> at average 3.5 damage per hit die -> 3.5/2 = 1.75 against sneak immune -> 30/1.75 = approx. 17d6 sneak attack in your build. How did you do it? Did you take Improved Sneak Attack feats?
• Taking sneak attack and high AB classes – there’s Bodyguard (which I have in my builds), Invisible Blade (2 weapon fighter and does bleeding damage, not plain SA), Ghost Faced Killer (expensive to get for feinter), Wilderness Stalker (also expensive for feinter), Blackuard (expensive for feinter and needs to be evil). Did I miss something? Do you think adding any of these classes improve my builds much?
• AB - at lvl 30 these builds have melee AB of 36-37 with non-epic gear. At level 22 I hit 1 or 2 attacks. Should I boost AB at the cost of sneak attack dice?
• AC – currently I have 47 with tower shield, ICE, non-epic gear and UMD using store scrolls (i.e., no improved mage armer yet). I agree that it’s a bit low, but is there any way to make it higher other than to have mithral full plate?
• Bluff – it’s maxed out. At level 30 it will be natural 35-36. Non-epic gear adds 15, so that’s around 50 in total. I can add some 5 points more with better gear. Guild Thief will add another 4. The difference between my and Steve’s builds are likely due to skill focus or silver palm feats.
• Swashbuckler class – in theory, my RP would be best reflected in Swashbuckler/Duelist build. However, I have 2 problems with such builds. First, they do low damage against crit/SA immune creatures and there’s no Epic Precision to remedy that. Second, the extra damage from intelligence, precision strikes and flurry do not apply to ranged attacks (even from close range). It seems strange to me when I play PC which can precisely hit the weak spot with a rapier, but not with hand crossbow.
• Replacing Guild Thief with Swashbuckler – adds 1 to AB, 5-10 damage (with Insightful Strike) and some HPs. The damage doesn’t work against crit immunes, though. The cost is 3d6 sneak attack (10.5 on average, although on successful feint), 2 bonus feats (1 from Guild Thief, 1 from 13 lvl of Rogue) and some skill points.
• Increasing Bodyguard to lvl 5 – I don’t see what this adds… no more sneak attack past lvl 3, guarding auras and skills are of limited use and all-out-attack will likely kill me instead of helping…

I thank you in advance for some more advice!

[Deathgrowl]

Must it have sneak attacks?

Fighter12/swash5/guild thief3/duelist10 should do fine. Good AB, decent damage... You could even just pump int all the way, because the fighter feats would do a lot of good to your AB.

Swash5/rogue11/guild thief4/duelist10 would have lower AB, but more damage if you manage to land the feint. It would probably also have more skill points, but you'd likely have to pump dex more to get higher AB.

Then you can also just drop swash and duelist entirely. Not picking classes that focus on onehanding one weapon doesn't mean you can't onehand one weapon.

Fighter14/rogue13/guild thief3 would do fine, I think. Skills, good AB, good damage, feint...

[Kobamw]

Thanks Deathgrowl, those are very accurate points and I thought about them before.

Must it have sneak attacks?

Fighter12/swash5/guild thief3/duelist10 should do fine.

In theory, it doesn't have to have sneak attack. As I said, swash/duelist builds fit the best the idea of a guy who deals damage by knowing where to hit, rather than being strong. Such builds, however, are melee only and rather toothless against undead and constructs. In fact, I decided to go into strenght instead of dexterity in my builds in order to hit harder the SA immune creatures.

Then you can also just drop swash and duelist entirely. Not picking classes that focus on onehanding one weapon doesn't mean you can't onehand one weapon.

Fighter14/rogue13/guild thief3 would do fine, I think. Skills, good AB, good damage, feint...

Which is essentially my first build toughened up at the cost of skill points. Could be even polished up by dropping 4 levels of fighter for 3 levels of Bodyguard and 4th of Guild Thief. Essentially losing only 1 feat and 12 HPs and getting in return 2d6 SA, +2 will save and some skill points. But I just made a full circle and got very close to what I had in the first place

This discussion reminds me of some more things I like about my builds. I like they have not too bad saves on all fronts. Anointed Knight gives access to spellcraft which combined with Able Learner feat gives me +6 to saves against spells, making them halfway decent.

[Steve]

.... damage per hit against sneak immune .... How did you do it? Did you take Improved Sneak Attack feats?

1d10 weapon, 12 pts from INT, EB+4, Epic Fighter Feats, AK bonus, weapon dmg bonus. Yes, there is gear involved, but then again, there always is.

Should I boost AB at the cost of sneak attack dice?

Well, think about it: more hits, more dmg. Unless you're constantly fighting from HiPS—which you are not—then high AB is better, in my opinion.

AC – but is there any way to make it higher other than to have mithral full plate?

No. Unless you have Class/PrC AC granted. Like Monk AC. This is the trade off.

Bluff – it’s maxed out. At level 30 it will be natural 35-36. Non-epic gear adds 15, so that’s around 50 in total. I can add some 5 points more with better gear. Guild Thief will add another 4. The difference between my and Steve’s builds are likely due to skill focus or silver palm feats.

If you are a Character that Bluff's to get SAs, then you really MUST invest in Bluff to the maximum you can. Because Spot is the goto Skill for almost all toons and rather high on most mobs, especially bosses, if you can't Feint them reliable, then...your Feinter is kinda useless (in melee, at least). For example, you can do a split of Rogue (13), Swashbuckler (11), Guild Thief (3), Neverwinter Nine (3) with 18 INT and all Bluff related Feats for a natural Bluff of 44 (before gear). Consider most toons have 33 Spot and get a d20, you need your bluff to be 52 pts at min for guaranteed Feinting. Sure, this type of build will have a low AB, but with gear and bonuses, it is 40 for TWF. Not bad. You just should approach your melee activities as a flanker, most of the time. But on the other hand, you can reach 49 AC with epic gear!!!

Swashbuckler class – in theory, my RP would be best reflected in Swashbuckler/Duelist build. However, I have 2 problems with such builds. First, they do low damage against crit/SA immune creatures and ...

Depends. If you take Combat Insight and have yuge INT, then you have reliable dmg. You could consider a split of Fighter (14), Duelist (10), Rogue (3), Neverwinter Nine (3) with 22 INT, and with the Epic Fighter feats, you can actually kick arse using a dagger. LOL. Or get all kooky and use a spear!!! 1.5x dmg!

Here is another build split to consider: Fighter (8), Whirling Dervish (10), Anointed Knight (8), Rogue (4)

309 skill points. 24 INT !!! BAB 26 and AB 35 (Fighter feats). AC of 55 with CE and epic gear. 41 avg DMG. And for a bonus, you get Minor Teleportation, so you always can get away in a pinch.

[thids]

*holds up a sign* will work for food or bluff gear.

Honestly though, I would never build feinters who purely depend on feint to deliver damage. Bluff gear is lacking somewhat and then there are those mobs who are almost impossible to feint. Either decent amount of damage from fighter feats + str (or int), or EDM, or hips. Though feint with hips is a bit redundant.

[chad878262]

For example, you can do a split of Rogue (13), Swashbuckler (11), Guild Thief (3), Neverwinter Nine (3) with 18 INT and all Bluff related Feats for a natural Bluff of 44 (before gear). Consider most toons have 33 Spot and get a d20, you need your bluff to be 52 pts at min for guaranteed Feinting.

Unfortunately, feint is even more difficult than posted by Steve...
From Wiki:

Feint User: d20 + Total Bluff skill
Target DC: d20 + Base Attack Bonus + Total Spot skill + Other bonuses
Other bonuses:
+4 for non-humanoid
+8 if unintelligent (1 or 2 intelligence)
or Impossible if 0 intelligence.

So a Spot skill of 33 on a PC with BAB 21 gets d20 +54 (meaning good luck landing a feint). The Feint feat is really on useable when the enemy does not have spot skill. Otherwise no matter how high Feint is it will be near impossible to land.

[Steve]

Note that the above formula for the target's DC is an educated guess, though it seems to be consistent with the results of this feat. There is a stochastic component to the target DC and it is modified by spot and BAB, it is unknown as to whether the "other bonuses" are added or not.

You forgot this part Chad!

[chad878262]

that only applies to the 'other bonuses'. As far as I know the Spot + BAB + d20 is accurate...

[mrm3ntalist]

If i sum up everything and bend the "not a caster" but knows something about magic, then everything will fit here - http://nwn2db.com/build/?238807 ( mind you it is a quick, unoptimised build)

High INT for damage 30+, a LOT of skill points, great AC, great AB and... it is a bard.
I maxed all the core skills and there are still 149skills points left. You can max hide and move silently, disguise AND spread the skill points on every lore category. Add the int to lore, Gr. heroism, Inspire courage and you get the most knowledgable character in the Faerun!

The bluff is 40 with no gear at all. 45 with gr heroism and a +2CHA item. Then add any other

If you dont mind a 20%xp penalty you can do a bard25/Swashbuckler5 for more damage!

All this if you can put up with the bard being a caster

[Steve]

Bard wins in every category!!!

It's like cheating without cheating!

And to mention...you can't min the CHA!!

[mrm3ntalist]

Bard wins in every category!!!

It's like cheating without cheating!

And to mention...you can't min the CHA!!

So true. Bards are like playing the game in "Very easy" mode

[AnchorUp]

Bard wins in every category!!!

It's like cheating without cheating!

And to mention...you can't min the CHA!!

So true. Bards are like playing the game in "Very easy" mode