Underdark General Discussion Thread

[Kelsfar]

Talk about things UD related here.

[Sellular]

Station and Rank
"Station: In all the world of the drow, there is no more important
word. It is the calling of their-of our- religion,
the incessant pulling of hungering heartstrings.
Ambition overides good sense and compassion is
thrown away in its face, all in the name of Lolth,
the Spider Queen."

I was wondering if we could have some ground rules for determining a character's station/rank since that's very important to drow society. It's hard to know who should be in charge in roleplay. I suggesting something like the following:

0 - Slave
1 - Outsider/Trader (a guest who doesn't live in the city)
2 - Non-drow citizen
4 - Drow Citizen
6 - Matriarch
6 - Priestess of Lolth
8 - High Priestess of Lolth
10 - Head of one of the Colleges

+1 if you are a member of a prestigious House that's in favor (Dm could decide who is in favor, foreign houses from other drow cities don't get a bonus). Slaves don't get house bonuses.
+1 if you are a high ranking member of said house (Battle Master, etc)
+1 if you are a member of an influential guild.
+1 if you are a high ranking member of the guild
+1 if you are a clergy member of the Church of Lolth
+1 if you are an Arcane magic user and a member of one of the schools of magic
+1 if you have great exploits to your name that are known to the people of Sshamath
+1 if you display large signs of wealth. (no easy way to determine this?)
+1 for every 10 levels - a catch-all for a measure of your power & surviveability
+1 for every cha bonus? (buffs/temporary bonuses don't count, items do) - a sort of catch-all for influence and beauty
-----
-1 if you have been shamed, publicly demoted, humiliated or mocked by someone of lower station (nullify this penalty if a suitable revenge is acquired. This can even be turned into a bonus if your revenge is poetic enough and you end out in a better position than before)
-1 if you are known to worship a power that is actively disliked by the drow of Sshamath
-1 if you are a foreigner

Members of lesser station should usually obey an order from a higher stationed individual, failure to do so is considered a sign of potential treason and could be punished. Of course, if the drow issuing the order fails to address this problem, the result can be that he loses station and the one rebuking him gains station. The main exception is if you are a member of the military and are under orders from an even higher ranking individual. In these cases the military and house guards act on the authority of the highest ranking individual of their house.

So with these rules, my character Vilrae would be:
2 - Non-drow citizen (Half-drow)
-1 Foreigner
+1 arcane school member
+1 10 levels
+1 Cha
-----
4, which puts her on par with the lowest of drow citizens. Since most drow would have their own bonuses from the list she's still pretty low on the ladder but she has carved out some power and respect.

What does everyone think of these rules? They would be entirely optional but give a means of gauging your societal influence and power in regards to others. I was thinking that we could have a post listing everyone's station and maybe we can even adopt some ad-hoc rules for challenges and fights, an opt-in thing that says you are okay with pvp as as long as it's related to station/insults/etc and relevent roleplay. (meaning if someone below you insults you, you can smack them back but you can't just run up to someone of higher rank and attack them solely to gain influence)

[raetin]

Interesting idea. Would outsider/trader also apply to visiting drow? Doesn't seem like it would to me. I think the best way to test an idea like this is to see if it jives with current reality.

I suppose Alyssia would be:
+4 (Drow citizen)
-1 Foreigner
+1 For 10 levels
+6 For charisma
= 10
-or-
-1 Eilistraeen (I wouldn't consider it public knowledge yet though)
= 9

Do you think that is accurate for her?

Edit: After some more thought I decided that I actually agree with the overall idea. I think it has a lot of merit. Perhaps charisma should only provide half its bonus towards rank, however.

[Flasmix]

It's a good ruling system but I think the Charisma bonus thing is to high. It should be a +1 bonus for having a Charisma bonus of 5 or more. A charisma bonus of 10 would give a +2 bonus in my opinion.

Let's see what Flasmix has...

4 - Drow Citizen
+1 - Member of an influential Guild.
+1 - High ranking member of guild
+1 - Arcane Magic user
+1 - Exploits (Who doesn't know Flasmix isn't a merchant? He's popular for that.)
+1 - Signs of Wealth (Flasmix is blinged out.)
+1 - Above level 10
-1 - In terms of religion, Flasmix has stated many times that he worships 'the coin' rather than Lolth.
-----------
9 - Pretty good score for the self-proclaimed 'Merchant leader' of Sshamath.

[Rev512]

Charisma is to large of a modifier. You should remove that and only deal with political or station oriented bonuses. Charisma is how social/charismatic a person is, not how high ranked they are in station.

A Drow Matriarch could have a rank 9, but have a 6 Charisma and be generally loathed by all, yet STILL retain the rank 9(which would be lowered by how much upon those rules?). Conversely a slave may be a rank 0, but be well liked by people because he/she has an 18 CHA. Station/Rank is independent of charisma. We don't get to raise in social rank by character statistics chosen at character creation, we do it via Role-Playing, developing a story arc for our characters etc.

My two cents.

[raetin]

Is Flasmix a member of an arcane school? I'd consider that an important part of the rank. Sorcerers & bards are technically arcane users, but probably shouldn't get much rank due to it.

As for charisma, +1 for a 5 modifier and +2 for a 10 modifier make sense.

I can see some arguments arising already over this though. I wouldn't consider Flasmix's guild influential (I don't see its affects or hear about it enough), nor would I really consider Flasmix's exploits great enough to warrant rank.

Not to pick on you Flasmix, but I'm pretty easygoing, so I can already see the arguments that are going to come up.

If it provides rank, it needs to either be fact or handed out by a DM, something you can't argue about. Or every time someone pulls rank of some kind a bunch of OOC arguing will follow about bling, exploits and the importance of a particular guild.

[Sellular]

Interesting idea. Would outsider/trader also apply to visiting drow? Doesn't seem like it would to me. I think the best way to test an idea like this is to see if it jives with current reality.

I meant the outsider to be for visiting merchants/explorers who aren't drow, such as Duergar, Mind Flayers and Sviblerfen. Otherwise you'd pick the highest ranking base score (unless you are a slave) that is appropriate for you.

I suppose Alyssia would be:
+4 (Drow citizen)
-1 Foreigner
+1 For 10 levels
+6 For charisma
= 10
-or-
-1 Eilistraeen (I wouldn't consider it public knowledge yet though)
= 9

Do you think that is accurate for her?

I'd say 10 is right since it's not public knowledge (I think that's something a DM would need to intervene in to declare it's now public knowledge or rumor). That sounds accurate. She has a lot of presence despite being a foreigner, mostly due to her high charisma. She's probably an eye-turner, right?

It might seem high, but keep in mind that the Head of one of the Colleges isn't going to be just a 10. He'll get bonuses too (+1 guild, +1 in charge of guild), he'll probably be high level (probably level 20-30, so that's another +2-+3), Arcane magic user (obviously, +1) and probably has tons and tons of wealth (another +1 or more) giving him a station rank of at least 16 but it could be even higher.

Plus, I'm not sure the member of one school of arcane magic can go around ordering other schools. Heck, I don't even think a high priestess could go around ordering a member of an arcane school. Doesn't seem to be that black-and-white in Sshamath. But I could be wrong.

It depends on what you mean about 'ordering around'. If a higher stationed drow tells someone to get out of their way then the lower stationed one should do it right away and apologize, even if he is a member of another school. But he wouldn't have the authority to order him around like a servant. In this case Authority is separate from Station. Think of Station more as a hierarchy of "I can pick on this guy and kick him around all I want and he won't strike back" rather than "I'm the boss of this guy."

I'm wondering if the penalty for a disliked faith should be higher, or maybe there should be varying degrees of it? I think someone being publicly known as an Ellistraeea or Ghaunadaur worshipper would absolutely slaughter their station and rank in a drow society (and would be a good incentitive to keep it hidden, revealing only to those who are eligible to become members of the faithful), but worshipping someone like Sune might label you as an eccentric but not put too much penalty on your societal rank.

I'm also open for more ideas for penalties. Drow society, even when it's not under the shackles of the Lolth Priesthood, is a pretty cut-throat place where everyone's looking for the opportunity to rise up in ranks or harm someone else's standing. One that just occured to me is:
-1 for rumors or intrigue that cast the character in a negative way. This could also be something like a bawdy song that becomes popular in the taverns and festhalls that mocks the victim.

If enough of the UD players like this idea I'd like to start a new thread just for listing people's station in Sshamath. The first thread would be the rules and a list of all the people who are participating and people can post changes to their rank so the post can be updated accordingly.

[Sellular]

Charisma is to large of a modifier. You should remove that and only deal with political or station oriented bonuses. Charisma is how social/charismatic a person is, not how high ranked they are in station.

A Drow Matriarch could have a rank 9, but have a 6 Charisma and be generally loathed by all, yet STILL retain the rank 9(which would be lowered by how much upon those rules?). Conversely a slave may be a rank 0, but be well liked by people because he/she has an 18 CHA. Station/Rank is independent of charisma. We don't get to raise in social rank by character statistics chosen at character creation, we do it via Role-Playing, developing a story arc for our characters etc.

My two cents.

I dunno, I'm torn on this. I think this is a perfect use for charisma to represent a meta-view of how others will look upon them. Drow are very vain, appearance and personality are of crucial importance to them.

An 18 charisma slave would be pretty exceptional. That's a very high charisma for a slave to have, he would either be a knockout or have a very influential personality. Drow would notice those things. Even though he or she is still a slave, they would be looked upon as a very good slave. A common drow would hesitate to molest this slave, though most drow would have at least a few bonuses (especially since CHA is a racial bonus). And charisma scores above 20 are very inspiring/desireable, I think that should be represented by how the society looks upon them, elevating them slightly above their peers.

Maybe half the CHA bonus?

[Sellular]

Is Flasmix a member of an arcane school? I'd consider that an important part of the rank. Sorcerers & bards are technically arcane users, but probably shouldn't get much rank due to it.

Yeah, I don't know if sorcerers are trained at the school. Perhaps there should be a +1 for being an arcane magic user, and another +1 for being a member of one of the schools? That would work nicely with how arcane magic is viewed and the political power held by the schools.

I can see some arguments arising already over this though. I wouldn't consider Flasmix's guild influential (I don't see its affects or hear about it enough), nor would I really consider Flasmix's exploits great enough to warrant rank.

Yes, a dm would need to be the one to say that a guild is influential enough for a bonus, probably the same with exploits.

If it provides rank, it needs to either be fact or handed out by a DM, something you can't argue about. Or every time someone pulls rank of some kind a bunch of OOC arguing will follow about bling, exploits and the importance of a particular guild.

Why does that have to be an ooc argument? I could see a bunch of drow breaking down and bickering about who is more important when it's not readily appearent, each of them going to extraordinary lengths to list all their accomplishments and superiority over the others.

[Flasmix]

Is Flasmix a member of an arcane school? I'd consider that an important part of the rank. Sorcerers & bards are technically arcane users, but probably shouldn't get much rank due to it.

I can see some arguments arising already over this though. I wouldn't consider Flasmix's guild influential (I don't see its affects or hear about it enough), nor would I really consider Flasmix's exploits great enough to warrant rank.

Not to pick on you Flasmix, but I'm pretty easygoing, so I can already see the arguments that are going to come up.

Don't worry about it, part of the influence is what you don't see. I'll PM you an example though but I was making this up for fun, if we are to implement something like this each "Rank" chart should be made up in private and sent to a DM, only the 'final' rank number would be revealed upon DM approval.

[Kelsfar]

Actually the foundation of Sshamath goes like this in terms of ranking.

First Class citizens:

-Conclave Member (A master of each of the Colleges of magic, non-playable as a PC)
-College member of ranking, there are many colleges as follows: Transmutation, Conjuration, Divination,and Summoning. (Ancient Arcana college is one that hasn't been established yet due to timeline and Q'arlynd Melarn hasn't even been to Sshamath yet because Ched Nasad at this timeline is still standing.

Secondary citizens:

-College student (School)
-Any race that can cast magic (preferably Wizards/ arcane spell casters)
- Established Drow
-Established Traders (any race) that base trade within Sshamath to outside lands and cities for gathering Items and such to profit the city and Conclave.
-Established Slave handlers (any race), (a creature/person/race under Sshamath law cannot be enslaved if it can perform or cast magic)
-Guards
-Established Merchants

Third class citizens:

-The various churches: Lolth, Vhaeraun, Eilistraee, Kiaransalee, Shar etc.. (The churches are tolerated within Sshamath but in no way does any church hold any ounce of weight to the Conclave, the various churches do provide the conclave with spells, potions and trinkets that the Conclave cannot get themselves due to being Arcane and the church's get there's from there diety, so an arrangement is made between the church's and the Conclave to allow the Church's to run open temples so long as that church does not in anyway cause problems to the Conclave)

-Any Underdark race (low class Drow, Duergar and Deep Gnome)

Fourth Class Citizens/Visitors:

-Any non Underdark race that has established themselves within the city or has provided something of value to Sshamath via through guild, house, trade etc..

Fifth Class citizens/visitors/slaves:

-Slaves(Rothe) As long as the slave is property to someone.
-Anyone that is visiting with nothing to contribute to the city of Sshamath, "Guest" of the city

[Kelsfar]

Ok I have been asked this alot so I'll put it here in stone, The Conclave is 110% NPC controlled and a PC cannot be in the Conclave, you may be a student of one of the various colleges, but sadly that is as far as you can go. The reason behind it is the Conclave "Rules" Sshamath and anything higher than a student grants to much power to a PC, its similar to being a Duke on the surface, since our server rules such titles will not be granted to anyone this applies within Sshamth as well, there are a 1000 ways to rp your character to fit in Sshamath but unfortunatly it is not within Conclave.

[DunDunDuuun]

Ok I have been asked this alot so I'll put it here in stone, The Conclave is 110% NPC controlled and a PC cannot be in the Conclave, you may be a student of one of the various colleges, but sadly that is as far as you can go. The reason behind it is the Conclave "Rules" Sshamath and anything higher than a student grants to much power to a PC, its similar to being a Duke on the surface, since our server rules such titles will not be granted to anyone this applies within Sshamth as well, there are a 1000 ways to rp your character to fit in Sshamath but unfortunatly it is not within Conclave.

How can our PCs enlist as Conclave students?

[Kelsfar]

By a long wait and application process, technically. But a meeting with a member of that particular College (just let me know either in game or via forum PM

[Rev512]

Ok, I reworked it some because to many people would be able to approach ranks equaling the movers and shakers of the city. Base line is 0, a Drow Native.


Station Base Rank.

Base rank will be what you're known as for the most part. The respect given will be determined by modifiers. So, say you're a Local Citizen who through modifiers has a rank of 6, you won't be higher ranked than someone with a base station rank of 6, but will be accorded the respect that station merits. This is to reflect those who have obtained the real rank, guard it and don't want to be outclassed by daring adventures who's fame and fortune is transitory if that makes sense.

If a player can RP his/her advancement of Base Rank (Say a Slave becomes a legitimate head of a minor guild, then his/her base rank WOULD change).

-6 - Slave
-4 - Outsider/Trader
-2 - Non-drow citizen
-1 - Drow Citizen (Foriegner)
+0 - Drow Citizen (Local)
+4 - Minor House, Guild or Clan Leader
+6 - Major House, Guild or Clan Leader.
+8 - High Priestess of sanctioned Religion.
+10 - Heads of Government
+10 - Head of one of the Colleges
+15 - Conclave member

Positive Modifiers:

+1 if you are a member of a prestigious House or Guild. (Leaders of house/guild not eligable)
+1 if you are a high ranking member of a house, guild or clan. (Leaders not eligable)
+1 if you are a clergy member of the Church of Lolth or Vhaeraun (Leaders of church not eligable)
+1 if you are an Arcane magic user
+1 if you are a member of one of the schools of magic (Leaders of magic schools not eligable)
+1 if you have great exploits to your name that are known to the people of Sshamath
+1 if you display large signs of wealth. (no easy way to determine this?)
+1 for every 10 levels - a catch-all for a measure of your power & surviveability
+1 if you carry the favor of the government, mage schools or conclave.

Negative Modifiers:

-1 if you have been shamed, publicly demoted, humiliated or mocked by someone of lower station (nullify this penalty if a suitable revenge is acquired. This can even be turned into a bonus if your revenge is poetic enough and you end out in a better position than before)
-1 if you are known to worship a power that is actively disliked by the drow of Sshamath
-1 if you are a convicted criminal
-1 if you are an enemy of the Conclave, or Schools of Magic or Government.
-1 if you are a member of an infamous organization (Thief, Mercenary, Spy etc.)

Redone Characters: (To the best of my abilities)

Sample Character.
A native wizard from the evocation school.
+0 - Drow Citizen (Local) (Base Rank)
+1 - Arcane User
+1 - School member
-------------------------
+2 Social Status.


Vilrae
-2 non-drow citizen (Base Rank)
+1 arcane magic user
+1 arcane school member
+1 10 levels
------------
+1 Social Status.

So Vilrae would be accorded respect from people, but always thought of as a foreigner half breed.


Alyssia
-1 Drow Citizen (Foriegner) (Base Rank)
+1 10 levels
-----------------------
+0 Social Status (Drow Citizen)

Alyssia would be accorded the respect of being a powerful regular citizen, just thought slightly less of because she's from elsewhere.


Flasmix

+4 Minor House, Guild or Clan Leader (Base Rank)
+1 if you are an Arcane magic user
+1 Exploits
+1 Wealthy
+1 Over Level 10
-1 Infamous Organization
-1 Religious views.
-----------------------------------
+6 Social Rank (Major House, Guild or Clan Leader Equivelent)

A famous, wealthy, powerful mage who is leading a minor guild. His reputation is clouded by his vocal denouncements of Lloth and that at the end of the day, a mercenary has no true loyalties to anyone.