Underdark General Discussion Thread

[Sellular]

Thanks Kelsfar, I hadn't realized that the churches were treated so lowly in Sshamath, I thought I had read that their power and influence was just a little lower than the Conclave.

Q for you, are Conclave Students any different from regular magic school students? For instance, if we say our character learns at the School of Transmutation, would she be a Conclave Student or would she just be a student?

Here's a revised proposal then, taking your great information into account. All bonuses are cumulative, Arcane School Students would get the +2 bonus as well as +3 for being an arcane user.

Start with a base score of 0.
Racial Modifiers
+5 - Drow
+2 - Underdark Race

+30 - Conclave Member (non-playable as a PC)
+10 - Conclave Student
+3 - Arcane Magic wielder
+2 - Arcane Student
+2 - Established Merchant (you have your own stall/shop)
+2 - Established Trader (you trade regularly with other UD/Surface settlements)
+2- Established Slave-handler
+1 - Member of a Church with a presence in the city that's in 'good' standing (if you aren't hiding it)
+1 - High Priest
+1 - Wealthy (at least 10,000gp, and you show it)
+1 - Member of an established, influential Guild or House
+1 - Highly Ranked Member of Guild/House
+1 - Member of a house that's in favor
+1 - Famous (If there are great exploits to your name and most citizens would have at least heard of you if your name was mentioned)
+1 - Subject of favorable rumor and intrigue
+1 - For every 10 levels
+1/2 - For every +1 CHA bonus (not counting any buffs, bonuses from gear counts round down)

----
-1 - Foreigner
-1 - Member of a house that has fallen out of favor
-1 - Worshipper of a god or member of an organization that's disliked by drow society
-2 - You are the subject of ill rumor and intrigue
-2 - You have been insulted or humiliated by one of lower rank than yourself
-3 - A visible brand marking you as a slave even if you are no longer one
-4 - A member of a foreign church or organization that is hated by the people of the city
-5 - Non-contributing member of society (a pest) - includes guests


Your social class isn't tied directly to your station. It's possible to attain a very high station yet still be a 2nd or 3rd class citizen. When confronted by a person of higher social class you are expected to defer to them irregardless of their Station. Thus Station becomes important mainly when dealing with people of your own social class. In cases of violence, guards or judges will almost always rule with the higher classed citizen. Higher class citizens can even kill lower class citizens without fear of the law, though they may be required to compensate the owners of slaves or servants for their loss. Because of this you should deal with higher ranked citizens as if they will totally flip out and kill you if you anger them in the slightest.

Station only matters when dealing with people of the same social class as yourself. Higher social class automatically trumps lower social classes.

Social Class:
First Class Citizens
Conclave members & students

Second Class Citizens
Magic Users
Drow
Established Traders, Slave Handlers and Merchants

Third Class Citizens
Clergy of a permitted Church
Underdark Race, Low class Drow

Fourth Class Citizens
Non Underdark Race that has provided something of value to the city

Fifth Class Citizens
Slaves & vagrants

Let's take a stock, level 10 drow warrior with no alliegences
F'igh'ter,
2nd Class Citizen, Station Rank: 6
+5 Drow
+1 10 levels

Now Vilrae would be:
2nd Class Citizen, Station rank: 8
+2 Underdark Race
+2 Arcane School Student
+3 Arcane Magic Wielder
+1 10 levels
-1 Foreigner
She's earned some respect for herself through her magic but her 'tainted' blood is holding her back. She would be out-ranked by anyone of equal skill, though she does have some superiority over lesser ranked individuals mainly because of how highly regarded magic is in Sshammath society.

Flasmix would be:
2nd Class Citzen, Station rank: 13
+5 Drow
+1 Member of an influential Guild
+1 High Ranking Member
+3 Arcane Magic Wielder
+1 Exploits
+1 Wealth
+1 10 level
I don't give him the trader bonus because he doesn't have a stall/store, thus isn't 'established'.


Alyssia could go two ways:
2nd Class Citizen, Station Rank: 8
+5 Drow
-1 Foreigner
+1 10 levels
+3 Charisma

Or, if it's found out she is an Ellistraeean or she decides to wear her holy symbol:
3rd Class Citizen, Station Rank: 9
+5 Drow
+1 Member of a Church
+1 10 levels
+3 Charisma
-1 Foreigner

Even though her station is higher here, she's a 3rd class citizen and will be stepped on by any 1st or 2nd class citizen with no avenue of reprisal.

[mute83]

of what i read, drow dosnt like sorc's and the likes much, atleast in that city. because they prefer you work for you power (study for a wizard)

[Sellular]

Anyways my ideal goal is that we could have this ranking system we would all agree on which could lead to further intrigue and plotting as we seek to defame and humiliate one another in our attempts to further our own social status. It could of course lead to some pvp, but the goal is more along the lines of social pvp. Though a lot of this would need some kind of oversight.

Say Vilrae pays some bards to spread some rumors about Veleash. Since they are relatively close in station she could potentially climb up the social ladder at his expense. So she pays a sum of gold, a dm determines some difficult based on how much she spent, the bard's perform skill and Veleash's own station (I'm guessing 12) compared to Vilrae's (8). Should it be successful, Veleash will discover to his dismay that he's become the subject of mockery in various taverns in Sshammath. His rank drops by one and Vilrae's increases by 1.

Then there's the chance for Veleash to get some payback, hehehe. If he does a good enough job at revenge then he might even come out with a higher station than he started with and Vilrae would be put back in her place - a sort of "don't screw with this guy" attitude.

[Rev512]

I'm fine with a status tracking system, I just want to ensure that:

A. Players can't easily get the status ranks of movers and shakers. (basically, they need to get DM involvement) Your social class vs. station seems to solve this largely.
B. That Charisma is not the largest defining aspect of status. I think that a solid player back story coupled with RPing is what should define status, not a mechanical statistic.

[Kelsfar]

Q for you, are Conclave Students any different from regular magic school students? For instance, if we say our character learns at the School of Transmutation, would she be a Conclave Student or would she just be a student?


To answer this question: "Conclave" is the top tier of Masters from the Various colleges, one seat in Conclave to each master of a College, what makes up the Conclave is each of these seated members make up the Conclave and rule the city as such, now there are no "Students" of the Conclave because "Conclave" is a hierarchy amongst themselves and each master breaks down to his specified school which then breaks down to stundents of that particular College. If this is any help to anyone I will post the known Masters of the colleges below.


Seldszar Elpragh: Drow wizard , Master of the College of Divination, member of Conclave.

Urlryn Khalazza: Drow Wizard, Master of the college of Conjuration and Summoning, member of Conclave.

The others I am still tracking down. Sshamath is a new place in Forgotten realms as far as developement in comparison to "Waterdeep" "Baldurs Gate" etc..

[Sellular]

Q for you, are Conclave Students any different from regular magic school students? For instance, if we say our character learns at the School of Transmutation, would she be a Conclave Student or would she just be a student?


To answer this question: "Conclave" is the top tier of Masters from the Various colleges, one seat in Conclave to each master of a College, what makes up the Conclave is each of these seated members make up the Conclave and rule the city as such, now there are no "Students" of the Conclave because "Conclave" is a hierarchy amongst themselves and each master breaks down to his specified school which then breaks down to stundents of that particular College. If this is any help to anyone I will post the known Masters of the colleges below.


Seldszar Elpragh: Drow wizard , Master of the College of Divination, member of Conclave.

Urlryn Khalazza: Drow Wizard, Master of the college of Conjuration and Summoning, member of Conclave.

The others I am still tracking down. Sshamath is a new place in Forgotten realms as far as developement in comparison to "Waterdeep" "Baldurs Gate" etc..

Ah, so a 'Conclave Student' would be one of the Master's personal apprentices? How about the teachers and instructors at the schools, would they be considered first class citizens or 2nd?

[Kelsfar]

I was stating that there is no such thing as a "Conclave Student" A Student of a particular school yes but the server rules restrict anyone from becoming more then just a student of a school, meaning you can use your "Student" entry to obtain the knowledge you seek before heading out on your own, generally a rp coarse to be a student and doesnt have the sway of a conclave member or a particular schools ranks within, being a student is the lowest level and only obtainable level within a college and towards the Conclave. As well there will be no petitions to open your own College as I stated in an earlier post that this ties into over powered titles which fall into the servers title rules. Hope I didn't confuse anyone

[Sellular]

Hope I didn't confuse anyone

Only a little

I have a new question. Since church members are 3rd class citizens, what happens if someone disguises the fact that they are a church member? What's the punishment for impersonating a member of a higher class?

[Flasmix]

I don't know what's going on anymore, but I love both of you.

[Rev512]

That's easy Sellular...DEATH BY SPOON!.....but why spoon cousin? Because it hurts more!

[Sellular]

That's good then. I was under the assumption that Ellistraee worship was prohibited like in most drow cities. Sshamath is one wierd little nutball of a city if they allow her priests to work openly.

Sorry if my roleplay regarding that has thrown anyone for a loop. We'll just chalk it up to Vilrae being misinformed and presumptuous. (it wouldn't be the first time)

So, uh, back to the Station ideas... any more thoughts?

[Kelsfar]

Church's are third class in Sshamath being that they play no role at all within the city besides exchanging items to the Conclave just to have there temple within the city which in then allows the various church's to convert, practice and sell there wares (scolls, potions, trinkets etc..) within the city.
The Conclave does not believe in higher powers and Diety's and that is why it is as such, 1st class citizens sadly cannot be obtained by players because 1st class is to high of a rank, meaning someone of extreme importance to the city, now students of colleges and people of established barrings all fall into second class for reasons they contribute much to the city or have ties to higher standings (1st class citizens). Third class is still pretty moderate for a social sect that has nothing to do with the Conclave or the ideals of the Conclaves.

[Kelsfar]

Yes Eilistraee does in fact have a temple in Sshamath it is very tiny in comparison to the one of Lolth and the secret one of Vhaerun, Eilistraeens use this temple as a sort of outpost and they are acepted (perhaps frowned on and hated by other church sects) as long as they abide by Sshamaths laws (Same applies to the other churches) Eilistraeens for example cannot just free a slave cause that is what there order requires without reprecussions from the guards because slaves are apart of Sshamath and taking of one's slave without permission is a breach in the law and will face punishment.

[Egg Shen]

I don't see the need for quantifying station. I prefer to let it be roleplayed in an organic manner. If somebody isn't giving your PC his just due, address it in character. But there's no need, in my mind, to have an OOC numbers system to fall back on in order to support your claims.

Especially as any sort of system can be gamed. I.E. creating a character with classes and background specifically tailored to score high on the 'station rating scale.'

I like the drow backdrop of intrigue and danger and ruthless ambition, but I still play my drow as adventurers that are a bit outside the norm. For those that wish to be a more integral part of that societal structure, that's all well and good, but I wouldn't want people to feel pressured to get too involved with climbing the station ladder in order to be accepted. I've always found it a little odd when characters are rolled up as members of noble houses etc., rather than nobody's who are choosing the path of adventure. Kind of like using lore to give yourself a leg up. . . it's always struck me as a little bit lame/cheap.

[Sellular]

I don't see the need for quantifying station. I prefer to let it be roleplayed in an organic manner. If somebody isn't giving your PC his just due, address it in character. But there's no need, in my mind, to have an OOC numbers system to fall back on in order to support your claims.

By that logic there's no need for game mechanics to support our characters in combat. We can just rp our results out.

Especially as any sort of system can be gamed. I.E. creating a character with classes and background specifically tailored to score high on the 'station rating scale.'

If someone wants to do that then what's wrong with it? It's the same as creating a character who is a great fighter and picks feats to score high in combat. Heck, just creating a drow wizard would put you high on the scale, and that's by design since wizards (and drow) are held in higher regard in Sshammath. If someone wants to start with a high station all it means is they can bully people around a bit until people get pissed off enough to plot against them.

If you don't want to play the social ladder game then you won't be forced to. For others it can create an opportunity for inter-character strife and rivalry with quantifiable results that doesn't degrade into simple meaningless pvp.