3. Powerbuild rule?

[nikkeatsrocks]

I'm just starting out, and I hope this hasn't already been addressed, but I was a bit confused by the third rule, in which it states, "You need to have at least three (3) levels in each of your classes by level twenty (20)." Does this mean if I'm going to cross-class I have to have at least three levels in each of my classes, or does this state that I HAVE to cross-class?

[Charraj]

It means if you're going to cross-class, you have to have at least three levels in each of your classes.

[nikkeatsrocks]

It means if you're going to cross-class, you have to have at least three levels in each of your classes.

Thank you so much C:

[vinnyb66]

On this question, what about starting a new prestige class after level 20? is that ok?

[Passiflora]

The same rule applies.

You "can" start a new class (or prestige class) after lvl 20 if you get the OK from the DMs. If it's clearly powerbuilding, the chances are high that it'd be a no, though.

[CrispyWalrus]

The same rule applies.

You "can" start a new class (or prestige class) after lvl 20 if you get the OK from the DMs. If it's clearly powerbuilding, the chances are high that it'd be a no, though.

Imo this caveat should just be removed and the rule be explicit-- 3 levels in all classes before level 20. It should be all or none for everyone. Requesting permission and granting it to one player while not another just makes such seem like favoritism whether it is intentional or not.

Some PrCs have far many more requirements than others so in theory allowing such makes much sense but "no" was my experience when I recently presented a sensible build idea that took a PrC at 21. The rule itself prevents some more RP flavored builds blending PrCs that make much more sense together than the ever so popular Frenzied Weapon Master-- imo one who seeks weapon mastery like a zen or samurai master goes about it through long and dedicated training-- not just going bat shit crazy and hacking at everything. Still one can easily fit the requirements in so these guys are rampant. Not to make this a FB thread but like DEX was added as a requisite for Shadowdancer, Rage (as it is in PnP) should be a requisite for FB.

[Larzs]

Rage (as it is in PnP) should be a requisite for FB.

I am game for that, makes sense to me! Go for it!

[Simian]

Rage (as it is in PnP) should be a requisite for FB.

Based on PnP, Frenzied Berserker requires feats, which require rage or a similar ability to qualify. Because those feats are not in game, and it would not make any sense to implement those two feats, this "rage" requirement is not getting in game any time soon.

Sure, if the staff wants to add such a requirement it goes in, but it is not based on PnP in the least.

If you think I am lying, just dig up a Complete Warrior and look it up yourself.

[Passiflora]

The P&P Frienzed berserker is also more powerfull than the nwn2's one though.

[CrispyWalrus]

As I said I did not intend to hijack this thread and make it a FB issue one, but since erroneous information is being posted...

Rage (as it is in PnP) should be a requisite for FB.

Based on PnP, Frenzied Berserker requires feats, which require rage or a similar ability to qualify. Because those feats are not in game, and it would not make any sense to implement those two feats, this "rage" requirement is not getting in game any time soon.

Sure, if the staff wants to add such a requirement it goes in, but it is not based on PnP in the least.

If you think I am lying, just dig up a Complete Warrior and look it up yourself.

I have it right in front of me and the rage feat is very much already in NWN2-- it's called Barbarian. Sure the PnP version requires intimidating and destructive rage but both those feats require one to already have rage. Even in PnP the feats are not selectable as a standalone ones but come only with the Barbarian class-- hence only Barbarians can be Frenzied Berserkers.

The P&P Frienzed berserker is also more powerfull than the nwn2's one though.

I do not see that as true at all nor what it has to do with the ludicrous mix of FB/WM and how incredibly common this PB is.

Perhaps the biggest benefit to a FB in NWN2 is that his frenzy is activated and always under the PC's direct control, which is a huge thing. Unless you RP it a FB is absolutely no threat to friends in NWN2 as he is in PnP. Frenzy damage in PnP is also only 2 points per round and nonlethal-- it won't kill you as the 6 real damage/round that can and does in NWN2, only subdue you if you get that low.

In PnP "while frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can she cast spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read scrolls. She can use any feat she has except Combat Expertise." In NWN2 you can do anything as you normally would-- cast, drink potions, use a rod, read a scroll, activate knockdown or disarm. For all intent and purposes it is just a buff in NWN2.

The only argument I could see for more powerful is Deathless Frenzy. Though PnP Deathless Frenzy keeps you on your feet but you still die when frenzy ends if you have <-10 HP, whereas NWN2's version is a Death Ward. Face a boss like the Ogre Chieftain and tell me which version you would rather have.

Back to the PB rule though-- no one can argue that a WM/FB is not a PB or that requiring rage (as PnP does) would eliminate this cheese.

[Passiflora]

I would take the "can not die" version. Deadward can always be cast by your cleric.

[Coughs coughs] Let's get back on topic though, please.

[Simian]

As I said I did not intend to hijack this thread and make it a FB issue one, but since erroneous information is being posted...

Sure the PnP version requires intimidating and destructive rage but both those feats require one to already have rage. Even in PnP the feats are not selectable as a standalone ones but come only with the Barbarian class-- hence only Barbarians can be Frenzied Berserkers. .

Look again, they also state Frenzy, and in PnP, we have at least 3 different variations of the 'Frenzy' ability. Barbarian is not the only route to that prestige class.

And anyhow, I'd rather keep Fighter/WM/FB/Rogues in game instead of Fighter/WM/FB/Barbarians. Why? Because outrunning a barbarian is already difficult enough without a monk's fast movement. Additionally, because of Barbarian's Rage they would gain few points of additional AB, damage, and hitpoints when they are already doing well enough without.

(The latter build can also collect enough UMD to use wands, so the losses are genuingly minimal.)

So, how about we just keep one of the most know powerbuilds a wee bit weaker, eh?

The 3-level rule is there curb out some of the most glaring one level dibs, but it still allows you to build insanely strong characters and that's that.

[CrispyWalrus]

Look again, they also state Frenzy, and in PnP, we have at least 3 different variations of the 'Frenzy' ability. Barbarian is not the only route to that prestige class.

You are nitpicking. It is the only route in NWN2...
(and makes a lot more sense as a FB requisite than, for example, DEX did for Sd where we already have the three requisite skills and two of three feats IG. Nothing in PnP says a Sd must be dextrous-- lightning reflexes which is IG could have easily been substituted for combat reflexes).

The 3-level rule is there curb out some of the most glaring one level dibs, but it still allows you to build insanely strong characters and that's that.

I don't ever want to see the 3 level rule removed-- even my own Shadowdancer had 4 levels. I certainly don't want 1 level dips. I would just prefer if instead of 3/20 the rule were 3/30 or more levels by 30. With the number of requisites to some PrCs, getting them all in by 20 can be tough.

[Coreska]

What PRCs is it so tough to get 3/20 in, if you take multiple ones?

[Passiflora]

The original question has been awnsered, and the thread is going into a new direction so I'm going to lock it.

It's not against the discussion that is going on (which can be interesting, but has been argued about many times in the past. At least once per four months), but I suggest you guys to start another thread in the suggestion forum to talk about it.

Thanks!