Paladin and Ranger Variants

[Rasael]

I'm interested in these, how they match up power wise compared to their regular classes and other classes?? Would you consider playing one?

They're from 'Complete Warrior' in case you want to look them up

<color=Gold><b>Faithfull Warrior - Paladin Variant</b></color>

This variant paladin gains all the normal class features of the paladin, with the following changes and additions:

Spells: The paladin does not gain the ability to cast divine spells. He may still attempt to memorize and cast spells but is incapable of drawing any divine power into them.

He gains the following abilities:

Paladin Level
6: Bless Weapon as per the spell at will
9: Receives Cleave feat
11: Divine Might as a spell-like ability once per day. Also receives the feat
13: Receives Extra Smiting feat
16: Holy Sword once per day as per the Paladin spell.
21: Receives Epic Prowess feat

<color=Gold><b>Ranging Warrior - Ranger Variant</b></color>

The variant ranger gains all the normal class features of the ranger, with the following changes and additions:

Spells: The ranger does not gain the ability to cast divine spells. He may still attempt to memorize and cast spells but is incapable of drawing any power into them.

He gains the following abilities:

Ranger Level
5: Receives Power Attack feat
6: Longstrider once per day as per the spell.
7: Receives Weapon Finesse Feat
11: Cat's Grace, Owls Wisdom or Bear's Endurace once per day.
12: Receives Dodge Feat
13: Neutralize Poison or Cure Disease once per day.
16: Freedom of Movement once per day, as a spell like ability.
21: Receives Epic Prowess Feat

[Simian]

Very weak, because having the spell book is so much better, especially with our custom spells.

However, it does free some ability points from wisdom.

[Atlas]

-

[Rasael]

Yeah I agree, we should give both varaints some extra martial abilities maybe? To Make it a more fundamental distinction from the regular class.

The Paladin variant works this way:
It gets Div. Might for free, and it has Turn undead - so it gets one extra use of Div Might per day + its undead turns.
So you get a few extra ability points and a feat for free, plus one extra use of Divine Might.

I'm thinking maybe it should get the Dodge and Cleave feats for free at certain levels.

Or maybe give it EDM at level 21ish.

[Simian]

As for Ranger; You could get additional abilities based on your Combat Style:
Ranged - Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload, Crossbow Sniper Line?
Two-Weapon - Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense line?


As for Paladin, why not a free Weapon Focus as well? Extra Smites?

I'm sorry, but if a Paladin is to loose the +8 to Strength from Bull's + Righteous Fury and +8 to Charisma from Eagle's + Righteous Glory, they need to get something else in return.

[Dogma]

Or maybe give it EDM at level 21ish.

Most EDM builds don't even qualify for it at lvl 21. Just giving it at lvl 21 would be incredibly OP as well considering the enormous stat requirement would be essentially nullified.

I think they'd be just fine with free feats such as:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (cuz I'd like to see more people use them ingame)
Weapon Specialization feats available similar to a Fighter (perhaps not the Mastery ones though - to keep Fighters around!)

Paladin needs to get Death Ward of some sort. Per day or however.
Ranger perhaps gets companion boost? (seeing as how ranger is very powerful melee anyways)
Paladin gets bonus Smite Evils per day (scaling with level same as current) and bonus Lay on Hands capacity.
Ranger gets free Improved Favored Enemy at every 5 levels? (effectively keeping them at Improved for every new Favored enemy selection)

Bonus feats in epics? To help prevent these from becoming even more dippy classes - seeing as how NO ONE dips into these for spellbook anyways: we will have to fully consider just about everyone taking them as the variant form.

[Rasael]

Allright, I updated the Variant's suggestion in the first post with the comments here. How's this? It doesn't have to be equal or better than the regular classes.

Can you give these variants a terrible powerbuild 'abuse' that would surpass the current Paladin and Rangers??

[Hoihe]

Does the power attack rangers get qualify them for getting cleave?

[Leo]

Both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse on the same path sounds a bit odd, in my opinion. There are no finessable weapons one can hold in two hands while benefitting from Weapon Finesse. Without cheating, that is.

[Rasael]

Does the power attack rangers get qualify them for getting cleave?

Yes!

[Hoihe]

I'd say rapiers might work. And you don't need to wield a weapon in both hands for PA to work, you just don't get that large bang for your buck. If anything, it allows our rangers to get cleave easily.

[Leo]

I'd say rapiers might work. And you don't need to wield a weapon in both hands for PA to work, you just don't get that large bang for your buck. If anything, it allows our rangers to get cleave easily.

Hoihe, rapiers don't work with Power Attack. Nor do ANY light weapons. You just get the penalty. That's why I said it is odd.

[mrieder79]

Both Power Attack and Weapon Finesse on the same path sounds a bit odd, in my opinion. There are no finessable weapons one can hold in two hands while benefitting from Weapon Finesse. Without cheating, that is.

Maybe a choice could be given between power attack and weapon finesse.

[Enaylius]

Complete Champion has ranger variants on page 50. It gives bonus feats at levels 4, 8, 11, and 14th levels based on what path the ranger takes. There is a common feat pool for both, but archery can select additional options from a specific list and so can two weapon fighters.

[Simian]

I think additional feats to choose from a list would be better for both classes. And those feats should be relevant feats, if not, 'class based feats.'

And yes, I am thinking of letting a ranger pick up Favoured Power Attack feats with those four bonus feats.

So no spell-like abilities of any kind, just bonus feats.