Lore Assistance

[Nomster]

From the Players Handbook II (3.5 edition?) p193
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... 01a&page=6

DIVINE CONVERSION
As noted in the Player’s Handbook, a cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct imposed by his deity loses all spells and class features and cannot attain any more levels as a cleric of that deity. All these penalties remain in effect until he atones. But what if he doesn’t want to atone? What if a cleric of Hextor finds new meaning and purpose in serving Heironeous after a dramatic conversion experience? Such a character need not become a multiclass ex-cleric of Hextor/cleric of Heironeous. Instead, Heironeous can simply reinstate the character’s cleric powers once he has proven his loyalty, talent, and ability. A cleric who changes his patron deity must complete a quest to prove his devotion to his new patron. The nature of the quest depends on the deity, and it always clearly reflects the deity’s alignment as well as his or her goals and beliefs. To start the process, the cleric must voluntarily accept a geas/quest spell cast by a higher-level cleric of his new deity. During the quest, the cleric has no access to spells or cleric class features—except his weapon and armor proficiencies, which he does not forfeit. Upon completing the quest, the cleric receives the benefit of an atonement spell from a cleric of the new deity. The character then becomes a cleric of the new deity and is inducted into the clergy during an appropriate ceremony of the DM’s choosing. After selecting two of the new deity’s domains in lieu of his old ones, the character has all the powers and abilities of his previous cleric level, plus the granted powers of his new domains. This method is the only one by which a cleric can change his deity. The retraining rules can’t be used to accomplish this task—it is simply too substantial a change in the character’s identity (not to mention his source of power) to chalk up to a bit of practice in his off hours.

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition p233

Changing Deities

It is possible for a cleric, druid, paladin, or spellcasting ranger (or any other divine spellcaster) to abandon his chosen deity and take up the faith of another deity. In doing so, the divine spellcaster loses all class features of the abandoned deity. To progress as a divine spellcaster of another faith, the character must go on a quest for his new church (often the recovery of a lost item of some importance to the deity), then receive an atonement spell from a representative of his new faith. Once these two conditions are met,the character becomes a divine spellcaster of the new deity, and if a cleric,he chooses two domains from the new deity's repertoire. The character then resumes the class features lost from leaving the old faith(so long as they are still applicable — turning or rebuking undead ability might change, for instance)

For others:
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition p39

You can only have one patron deity at a time. It is possible to change your patron, but doing so is not a decision made lightly or quickly. If you are a cleric, druid, paladin, or spellcasting ranger (or any other divine spellcaster), this process is described in the Changing Deities section of Chapter 5: Deities. If you are any other character class, changing a patron is a simple matter of deciding to do so that does not require intervention by the church of your new patron (although obtaining its blessing is customary, to show allegiance to the new deity). A character who frequently changes patron deities is likely to gain a reputation of being weak in her faith, and risks being branded as one of the False in the afterlife.

It has some other information surrounding worship as well so check the info on p39 and p233.
http://www.alexisalvarez.org/RPG/rulebo ... etting.pdf

[Hoihe]

Thanks.

[Catam]

A Shadowdancer's summoned shadow is actually akin to a mage's familiar... if it is unsummoned or destroyed there is a fortitude roll (dc 15) to save against xp loss. The undead shade comes from the Plane of Shadow and, as the term undead implies, was once a living being from the Prime Material Plane. Even replacing it cannot be done for 30 days in PnP. It is simply a shadow entity with a close bond to the shadowdancer that serves as his or her companion.

Where did you find this information? By the description in the Dungeon Master's Guide, it doesn't seem like "simply a shadow entity" at all. It can't be turned, it can't create a spawn, it has the same alignment as the shadowdancer.
I'm inclined to agree with Xanfyrst, though.

Firstly:

Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade (see the Monster Manual for the shadow’s statistics). Unlike a normal shadow <----(this implies it is a shadow with the following differences), this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion. For example, a 9thlevel shadowdancer can have a shadow companion[/color] with 6 HD.

If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer loses 200 experience points per shadowdancer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per prestige class level. The shadowdancer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.

Secondly:

Differences between the summoned shadow and the shadow from MMI are noted in this bright and sunny color... I should have gone black but even this shadey subject needs to be a little more cheerful!
-- Shadows are creatures of sentient darkness, hating life and light with equal fervor. Their touch bestows the painful chill of nonexistence, making them very dangerous opponents.
-- A shadow can be difficult to see in dark or gloomy areas but stands out starkly in brightly illuminated places.
-- Natural enemies of all that live, shadows are aggressive and predatory. They are quick to strike and make short work of those unprepared to deal with them.
-- A shadow is 5 to 6 feet tall and is weightless.
-- Shadows cannot speak intelligibly.

Shadow
Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 3d12 (19 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: Fly 40 ft. (good) (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (+2 Dex, +1 deflection), touch 13, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/—
Attack: Incorporeal touch +3 melee (1d6 Str)
Full Attack: Incorporeal touch +3 melee (1d6 Str)
Special Attacks: Create spawn, strength damage
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., incorporeal traits, +2 turn resistance, undead traits
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str —, Dex 14, Con —, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13
Skills: Hide +8*, Listen +7, Search +4, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Dodge
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary, gang (2–5), or swarm (6–11)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 4–9 HD
Strength Damage (Su): The touch of a shadow deals 1d6 points of Strength damage to a living foe. A creature reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow dies. This is a negative energy effect.
Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid reduced to Strength 0 by a shadow becomes a shadow under the control of its killer within 1d4 rounds.

Thirdly:

Shadowdancers: Not all who manipulate shadow do so through intense study and arcane formulae. A rare few grow so close to darkness, they brush the edges of shadow on an instinctive level. Shadowdancers pierce the borders of the Plane of Shadow when they make use of their abilities, even if they remain ignorant of that fact. To date, shadow magic casters have been unable to determine what it is about shadowdancers that grants them this innate link to shadow, but it is an area of intense study and debate within their various societies and organizations.

So, to summarize... a shadowdancer summons a specific undead shadow as a companion that varies from the common shadows adventurers might encounter. Shadows are made when another shadow drains the strength of a humanoid to 0 thus killing it

I'm not saying that a shadowdancer shouldn't RP the shadow he summons as his own shadow, just saying that it isn't his or her shadow. When it is summoned, the shadow that was on the ground is still going to be there.

The summoned shadow does not have its origins specifically from the Plane of Shadow, but that is where the abilities of shadowdancers come from, though not as much as a true weaver of Shadow Magics. I RP it as simply coming from the shadows around, essentially coming from the Plane of Shadows, though not specifically. Otherwise it'd be lurking in the bushes like all those animal companions waiting for their druids or rangers to get out of the FAI...

Maybe the differences between the summoned shadows and normal shadows are similar to the differences between animals and the animal companions that druids and rangers receive. After the ritual of bonding, these animal companions change from being just animals and are considered magical beasts. I've not seen anything specifically saying exactly how the connection to the summoned shadow is made... simply that it exists. Maybe there is a ritual of sorts... maybe the training and skill of the shadowdancer attunes enough that the connection with shadows is enough for the bond with the comanion to be made.

Mostly I think we are just interpreting the same material differently. That happens often enough in this game. Maybe there is more on this some where. I'll post it if I can find anything.

[DM Setanta]

Keep in mind energy from the plane of shadow, and using it in spells, like many illusion spells, is not the same thing as using the Shadow weave.

[Deathgrowl]

Keep in mind energy from the plane of shadow, and using it in spells, like many illusion spells, is not the same thing as using the Shadow weave.

Yeah, this is a point I'm trying to get across often. Shadowdancing has nothing to do with the inaptly named Shadow Weave. Shadow magic, as Setanta points out, isn't shadow weave either (but it can be!).

[Maverick 40]

How is changing patron gods viewed by the divines?

(if patron god is decided by amount of dedication)

That's a good question too

If you leave a God for another God, can you ever return back to the first God again?

[Nomster]

How is changing patron gods viewed by the divines?

(if patron god is decided by amount of dedication)

That's a good question too

If you leave a God for another God, can you ever return back to the first God again?

I thought what I posted sorta answered it "A character who frequently changes patron deities is likely to gain a reputation of being weak in her faith, and risks being branded as one of the False in the afterlife." If its a cleric (etc) its also possible but the chances for them to keep changing patron deity is.. erm.. well just a thing that shouldn't happen (frequently). Some gods are also very strict on their view of serving other gods, Bane comes first to mind but there are others. His dogma includes "Serve no one but Bane."

The way I see it, someone could change patron deity and then realize that deity was not what they had thought and changes back to their original patron deity. I imagine most deities would welcome a worshipper back with open arms; perhaps issuing a quest or several days of prayer or the like while some might issue punishment for derailing from the 'true' faith. Many things can happen throughout a person's life and they can be doubtful of their deities, especially when tragedies and misfortune occurs. How well they are received back into the faith would depend on the church and deity (and whether you are an adventurer or clergy). <<--- My personal thought not based on any books

Its natural to pay homage to several deities, you don't have to keep changing your patron deity to do this. You can even pay homage to a deity of conflicting alignment. This is in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition p39.

[Maverick 40]

How is changing patron gods viewed by the divines?

(if patron god is decided by amount of dedication)

That's a good question too

If you leave a God for another God, can you ever return back to the first God again?

I thought what I posted sorta answered it "A character who frequently changes patron deities is likely to gain a reputation of being weak in her faith, and risks being branded as one of the False in the afterlife." If its a cleric (etc) its also possible but the chances for them to keep changing patron deity is.. erm.. well just a thing that shouldn't happen (frequently). Some gods are also very strict on their view of serving other gods, Bane comes first to mind but there are others. His dogma includes "Serve no one but Bane."

The way I see it, someone could change patron deity and then realize that deity was not what they had thought and changes back to their original patron deity. I imagine most deities would welcome a worshipper back with open arms; perhaps issuing a quest or several days of prayer or the like while some might issue punishment for derailing from the 'true' faith. Many things can happen throughout a person's life and they can be doubtful of their deities, especially when tragedies and misfortune occurs. How well they are received back into the faith would depend on the church and deity (and whether you are an adventurer or clergy). <<--- My personal thought not based on any books

Its natural to pay homage to several deities, you don't have to keep changing your patron deity to do this. You can even pay homage to a deity of conflicting alignment. This is in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition p39.

This is why I simply can not play a Cleric on this server! I don't think I have the dogma, or lore aptitude to fully understand the complexities of this class make up

[7threalm]

well i think a lot of the confusion, is with the "chosen" of a faith such as Elimister for mystral, cale for "mask", wheres the gods directly speak to them




cleric has a touch with a god, but it doesn't mean the god directly interacts with them, same for a paladin, a lot of preaching/lore is passed down through church/temples and they act accordingly. The gods may grant them spells and such and that good telling of whether or no their god approves of their religious practices.

Favored souls were a mistake and cheap attempt at creating "chosens" (my opinion)

very few are named "chosen" and some gods even pick their "chosen" out of people not even associated with their teaching.

[Nihm]

Keep in mind energy from the plane of shadow, and using it in spells, like many illusion spells, is not the same thing as using the Shadow weave.

Yeah, this is a point I'm trying to get across often. Shadowdancing has nothing to do with the inaptly named Shadow Weave. Shadow magic, as Setanta points out, isn't shadow weave either (but it can be!).

So very true... and as stated from the Tome of Magic, shadowdancers are mostly ignorant of their abilities connection to the Plane of Shadows... they just think it is so cool to hide in a shadow! I've often thought their connection with it is much like using the zest of an orange or lemon in cooking... just scraping the surface of the Plane but still adding some interesting flavor to what they do!

Interesting stuff from that book about Shadow Magic/Weave:

Shadow Magic: Shadow magic exists in the D&D game as a subschool of illusion magic. The FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Setting took the concept further with the creation of the Shadow Weave and the corrupt magic it produces. Tome of Magic presents a wholly different option for shadow magic that connects it more deeply to the Plane of Shadow and fully embraces that realm’s true nature as a dark mirror to the Material Plane.

THE SHADOW WEAVE OF TORIL

In the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting, the Weave is a network of mystical energies, the source of magic for all the world. The rare Toril caster understands that a second source of magic exists in the gaps of the Weave itself. This is a perfect example of the second principle of shadow magic in action. Because the Weave draws in energies, not just from extraplanar sources, but from the world around it, it leaves holes in reality where those energies come from. This is the Shadow Weave, a network of “negative” magic. Those few who truly understand it, such as shadow magic casters, use the Shadow Weave as a source for their power, drawing on it the way shadow mages of other worlds draw directly from the Plane of Shadow.

Here is the actual PDF in case anyone wants to download it, enjoy!
Click here to download!! Do it now!!! ----- > Tome of Magic

[shadowofnight]

I didn't know about the realm of shadow thing. I guess since the shadow dancer wouldn't really know about it though it won't fit into my RP I am putting points in perform though so she can be a acrobat and dance

[fashionisdanger]

My turn! Have all the red wizards to be bald? I am asking this because I heard from a player (long time ago) that some have not, and it sounded strange to me. Do Rashemi falls in this category?
How about the personal guards of the red wizards? Have them to be bald? No differences if they are Mulan or Rashemi?

[Xanfyrst]

Unless rogue or undercover, yes. It's Mulani tradition. Rashemi can't be RW.

Their servants do not have to.

[fashionisdanger]

How well, they say that bald man are sexy (well, bald men say it...)

Thanks for the infos!

[Hoihe]

Can shadow dancers hide in a sorcerer's/Wizard's Shadow Shield, or other illusion spells that conjure up Shadowstuff?

From my understanding, Shadow shield conjures up shadowstuff from the Plane of Shadows (I prefer calling it "shadow realm", meh) to then cloak themselves in, which absorbs the majority of impacts (or at least redirects it to the parallel plane) [the DR], absorbs all negative energy effects/redirects it to the parallel plane [The Immunities], the shadow also acts as a hard shield [natural shield].

Can it also act like a shadow where a SD can hide in?

It came up ICly when Hoihe demonstrated Shadow Shield to a Shadowdancer, and I'm not sure whether it'd work or not. Hoihe's reply was : "While I think technically it might work, considering my excellent ability to control my spells.. it's too dangerous." Or, at least something like that.