Warlock Lore - Must Read

[WeWhoEat]

Help me interpret this from the 3.5 source book Complete Mage p.8:

"As beings of pure chaos unconcerned with matters of morality, few slaadi care enough to make pacts with mortals. Some of the most potent of them, however, such as the mightiest of the death slaadi, occasionally empower warlocks for their own unfathomable reasons."

Doesn't it just mean what it days? That few care to do it, but a handful does? And that nobody knows why?

So it means I can play one?

Looks that way to me.

[fashionisdanger]

Do it. Do it! DO IT!

[fashionisdanger]

I do wonder: powers of a pact mage come from his body or, for example, his soul? In other words... A reincarnate pact mage will keep his eldritch power?

[Hoihe]

I do wonder: powers of a pact mage come from his body or, for example, his soul? In other words... A reincarnate pact mage will keep his eldritch power?

I see I spread the holy word! Welcome to the flock

And while Reincarnate is pretty powerful, soul is unrelated to the body. And while it may change with the Reincarnation.. I'm not sure it is capable of breaking pacts made on the soul.

Not sure about bloodlines (like great-great grandfather making a pact and damning all his descendants to the same fate in the Hells).. after all.. the person is no longer a descendant!

[WeWhoEat]

Heritage is more than just genetics. A tiefling's soul bears the taint of its ancestry, just as an asimaar's or genasi's. Generational Pacts are not literally tied to the warm red liquid that sludges through one's veins.

Warlock power comes from the soul, not the body. A warlock reincarnated keeps all of his warlock levels and abilities and Pacts and Heritages. A tiefling's soul is different from a human's soul, just as a genasi's is, or an elf's, or any other race.

That being said.... before anyone gets any ideas: claiming to be a Heritage warlock reincarnated into a non-Heritage race is a terrible idea. Reincarnation in most cases in general is cheesy shark-jumping, and claiming that "Oh, sure I am an elf NOW, but I used to be a genasi, so I have no Pact and am completely harmless but can still use my genasi heritage warlock abilities without being a genasi mechanically" is crap.

Besides, you gotta play what is on your sheet, and there is no "Reincarnated" feat for new characters to select.

[fashionisdanger]

Oh well I was thinking more that a smart warlock might avoid go to the Hells keeping reincarnating in younger bodies once hit a venerable age. Very wicked.

[WeWhoEat]

True, but when you are killed, the devils would still have a brief chance to collect your soul. And you would have to be killed, since Reincarnate does not work if you died of old age, and it does not work on a living target. Also, you would probably get targeted by Inevitables for cheating death.

Plus, having to keep finding new druids to keep you going could get tough.

[Hoihe]

If s/he can find a druid, that is. And druids hate warlocks most of the time. Some do go the fey pact way but they are.. different.


But yeah, I think our lore has something exactly against that.. something like "inevitables", some robots who come for those who cheat death for far too long unnaturally?

Or something like that.

I suppose getting reincarnated once, or twice or thrice and not intentionally might pass with them.


And you can kill someone with a dagger as they reach their twilight, and reincarnate them.. a way to cheat death until the Inveitables comes.

Just do as Hoihe and try to convince a random druid to kill you and pray that you end up reincarnated a dragon. You'll live long enough to get bored of life.

And probably insane if you did not prepare for such a long life.

P.s: Going the Hoihe way might end up with some furious druids throwing a rock at you and telling you to go away.

[Knightmare]

A pact warlock's eldritch powers come from the fiend which he has signed the contract with. The warlock is able to tap into the fiend's power pool, so to speak, and channel it at will.

When a pact warlock dies, the devil may claim his soul. As such, reincarnation shouldn't be possible.

Also, one cannot enherit a pact from one's ancestors. The lore is very specific that pacts can never be forced onto someone when they are not willing or aware. They can be tricked into signing a pact, but never forced - it has to be done out of free will.

[Whispers of Winter]

Technically, as I recall it, the power of a pact resides with the Lord of the layer the devil is in service to. Since the Lords cannot be Gods, they use these pacts instead as a very cyclical manner of gaining and giving power, but it all comes from the Lords of Hell- Or should. The Pact is simply a conduit. Hence why a pact with a devil cannot and will not be broken by killing the devil who you made it with, much less with people 'helping you' to get you out of the pact. There's a very specific way people can get out of it and as cheesy as it sounds, it's what the Fiendish Codex II: Tyrants of the Nine Hells, specifies. You go to Court in Hell, trying to object your pact to get out of it. This is literally the ONLY way to get out of an infernal pact besides dying and- Well, becoming a Lemur.

Again, it's been a while since I read the excerpt, so I will look at it again and correct this is otherwise wrong.

[WeWhoEat]

A pact warlock's eldritch powers come from the fiend which he has signed the contract with. The warlock is able to tap into the fiend's power pool, so to speak, and channel it at will.

When a pact warlock dies, the devil may claim his soul. As such, reincarnation shouldn't be possible.

Also, one cannot enherit a pact from one's ancestors. The lore is very specific that pacts can never be forced onto someone when they are not willing or aware. They can be tricked into signing a pact, but never forced - it has to be done out of free will.

You are sort of correct in some aspects.

Firstly, a Pact Warlock could be Fey Pact or Slaadi Pact, so not technically a fiend.

You are also right about those warlocks who have sold their souls having issues with Reincarnation, but actually they would have trouble with ALL bring-me-back spells. Then again, Myrkul in the Fugue says that there has been a mistake, and it is not yet your time to die, and he trumps devils, so that is a good excuse to use.

The part about Inheritance is trickier - you are partly right, because you cannot indeed sell the souls of others, or sign Pacts for others. That being said, there are still ways to Inherit warlockness. It could be that some ancestor of yours made a Pact with a devil that ended up with his family being empowered, or perhaps your family has historically been minions of a particular Pact-granting entity and so the seventh son of the seventh son will be born gifted, or something like that. Inherited Pacts are really bloody tricky OOCly to pull off, because they all-too-often slip into simply being excuses for being a blameless Good warlock.

And, also, Warlock abilities can come from tapping the power inherent in elemental, fey, or Outsider heritage, such as tieflings and Genasi.

[Simian]

Also, one cannot enherit a pact from one's ancestors. The lore is very specific that pacts can never be forced onto someone when they are not willing or aware. They can be tricked into signing a pact, but never forced - it has to be done out of free will.

Have you been reading 4th edition again?

[Knightmare]

The part about Inheritance is trickier - you are partly right, because you cannot indeed sell the souls of others, or sign Pacts for others. That being said, there are still ways to Inherit warlockness. It could be that some ancestor of yours made a Pact with a devil that ended up with his family being empowered, or perhaps your family has historically been minions of a particular Pact-granting entity and so the seventh son of the seventh son will be born gifted, or something like that. Inherited Pacts are really bloody tricky OOCly to pull off, because they all-too-often slip into simply being excuses for being a blameless Good warlock.

You don't think this sounds contradictive?

I've never read anything about this being possible in the actual source material, so I am partial to saying that this mostly comes from subjective interpretations.

Of course, a direct quote from one of the source books stating that this is indeed possible would prove me wrong.

[WeWhoEat]

Of course, a direct quote from one of the source books stating that this is indeed possible would prove me wrong.

Here you go! Page 5 of Complete Arcane, which introduced the Warlock Class.

"Many warlocks are champions of dark and chaotic powers. Long ago, they (or in some cases, their ancestors) forged grim pacts with dangerous extraplanar powers, trading potions of their souls in exchange for supernatural power. While many warlocks have turned away from evil, seeking to undo the wrongs of their former colleagues, there are still chained by the old pacts through which they acquired their powers. The demand to further the designs of their dark patrons, or to resist them, drives most warlocks to seek the opportunities for power, wealth, and great deeds (for good or ill) offered by adventuring..."

Blah blah blah...

"Just as a sorcerer is not beholded to the magic-wielding ancestor that bequeathed his bloodline with arcane power, a warlock is not bound to follow the source that gifted him with magic

Blah blah blah....

And some random relevant quote for non-evil warlocks...

"...In fact, many warlocks are created by nonevil powers - wild or fey forces that can be every bit as dangerous as demons or devils. Whatever their origin, warlocks are widely feared and misunderstood. Most are wanderers who rarely stay in one place for long.
"Some are the descendents of those who trafficed with demons and devils long ago. Some seek out the dark powers as yours, driven by ambition or the desire for power...

[Knightmare]

@ WeWHoEat.

That's also the quote used in the opening of this thread. It seems to include and validate the fey and demonic type of pacts, which are handled differently than the fiends'. Note that it is not specifically refering to devils.

The fiendish types of pacts are explained and elaborated in the "infernal codex".

I agree that the lore can be vague and I understand how one might think that they work like a "curse" which is passed down from generation to generation.