Lore Assistance

[Nihm]

I totally agree... emoting like that would be a hindrance to being effective in many instances. Taking the time to type *steps into the shadows to avoid the large dragon's razor sharp claws and mighty incisors* would most likely make the dragon's belly full of a HiPSer. When I wrote "emote it as..." I was in no way telling anyone that they should always type that before hiding. Though I do emote it with Nihm often since she is usually in RP situations and not in combat. I call it RP XP grinding!

[ragnarok1983]

Ha! Nihm, if the DMs let that happen, that would be hilarious.

They would have to give me DM powers so I could "help" the people that worship Paws.
Can you imagine his followers? High strength orcs, IPAing daggers... screaming "Urr, I is tiny thief... so urr... I unlock chest!" Clerics of Paws's church would be required to have 9 or less wisdom upon character creation. Favored Souls gain halberd or greatsword proficiency... both will only do bludgeoning damage for unknown reasons. Brandobaris would be a rival, for Paws also favors those who favor tall tales.

It would be epic.

Back on point, too bad Cyric has not ascended yet, cuz he is a perfect deity for my concept.

[WeWhoEat]

Tharizdun and Ghaunadaur both have the madness domain, rags.

[Simian]

HiPS RELATED!

You should refer to d20srd as it is the online version of the 3.5 Edition Player's, Monsters, and Dungeon Master's Handboooks/Manuals and available to all. (Unlike D&D Wiki, its biggest selling point is that it doesn't have homebrewed material or different editions to confuse the reader.)

Hide: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm

Now what I would underline instead are the following parts:
Hide:
Total concealment
Action: Usually none.

Hide in Plain Sight:
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in use her own shadow.

Hence, I would say that Hide in Plain Sight ability grants the user 'total concealment' as long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow other than her own. And considering how hard it is to be 10 feet away from a shadow in real life, the only cases when you cannot 'Hide in Plain Sight' are in Antimagic Zones and when your opponents simply beat your hide checks.

Therefore I do not have anything against a Shadowdancer or Assassin walking unseen in the middle of the road, in broad daylight. Because from the perspective of a PnP DM, HiPS is not overpowered. The DM can simply spawn monsters with decent enough detection skills, uncanny dodge, and/or the Blind-Fight feat.


Now as for the insisting that a shadowdancer must be 'standing on or within' a shadow to 'hide' - is by default very problematic. There is no actual definition for what is a proper shadow. For example we could compare the shadows produced by a tree's branch and and that of a single blade of grass. The branch's shadow is certainly bigger than the single blade of grass. But then again, we very rarely have just one blade of grass. We have tens of thousands, and those blades of grass together form a much larger shadow surface than any tree ever would. As for those cobblestones, the sun just has to be in the right angle to connect the shadows of those cobblestones. Same goes for mountains to cover vast space of land. And it should be rather obvious that it is very easy to argue for the entire evening on what forms a proper shadow.

Therefore, it is easier to just say Hide in Plain Sight provides Total Concealment until Spotted, and there is absolutely nothing left to argue. It fits the skill and feat descriptions better, and there is no headaches attached.

Now, as for how someone dissappears while observed, that is up to you to decide. You can fade away as we do on the server, you can leap to a shadow if you must, you can claim to 'pull and spin' shadows around you as if they were elastic fabric, you can dissappear in a bamf of 'smoke,' or whatever you fancy.

[Nihm]

Tharizdun and Ghaunadaur both have the madness domain, rags.

Tharizdûn is from the Greyhawk Campaign Setting and Ghaunadar's Domains in Forgotten Realms are Cavern, Chaos, Drow, Evil, Hatred and Slime. The Madness Domain is not available to any FR deity... without the staff's approval of course

References (open source):
Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Edition Index – Deities
Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 Edition Index – Clerical Domain Summaries

References (possibly not open source):
Complete Divine
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting
Faiths and Pantheons

[Passiflora]

I also thought that Tharzidun was from another world, but..

In 1340 DR, a cult of Tharizdun formed in western Chessenta. It hired bandits, consorted with demons, and caused much havoc before an alliance of forces destroyed it. Some credit the fact that Tharizdun did not gain a permanent foothold on Toril to the personal intervention of the goddess Mystra.

=/

[Nihm]

You should refer to d20srd as it is the online version of the 3.5 Edition Player's, Monsters, and Dungeon Master's Handboooks/Manuals and available to all. (Unlike D&D Wiki, its biggest selling point is that it doesn't have homebrewed material or different editions to confuse the reader.)

I have hard copies and pdfs of over 250 D&D Source books and other documents relevant to the game. Unfortunately The d20srd does not have all the information available in the books.

When a character hides in a shadow he should have logical spacial relevance. It would be like a half-orc trying to fit in a halfling's handbag. He is just too big to fit. The argument you will use for that is HiPS is a supernatural ability. The supernatural aspect is the ability to use shadows for concealment in which to hide, normally only found by objects large enough to conceal the character trying to hide.

Now, as for how someone dissappears while observed, that is up to you to decide. You can fade away as we do on the server, you can leap to a shadow if you must, you can claim to 'pull and spin' shadows around you as if they were elastic fabric, you can dissappear in a bamf of 'smoke,' or whatever you fancy.

Fading away, pulling and spinning shadows, bamfing... like Nightcrawler.... or whatever you fancy... is not how a dancer hides. They move... or leap... to the shadow and use it to conceal themselves. Now.. about bamfing... a ninja with a smoke bomb would be awesome!

[Nihm]

I also thought that Tharzidun was from another world, but..

In 1340 DR, a cult of Tharizdun formed in western Chessenta. It hired bandits, consorted with demons, and caused much havoc before an alliance of forces destroyed it. Some credit the fact that Tharizdun did not gain a permanent foothold on Toril to the personal intervention of the goddess Mystra.

=/

Source of Reference?

EDIT: Found it...

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/1340_DR

Second EDIT: Sword of the Gods is a FR Novel... seems the author excercised creative liberties here but, without actually having that book, it is hard to confirm the accuracy of the Wiki.

[Simian]

I have hard copies and pdfs of over 250 D&D Source books and other documents relevant to the game. Unfortunately The d20srd does not have all the information available in the books.

It does not have everything, but it has everything you need to know to play the game. Something that is more than enough for this topic.

When a character hides in a shadow he should have logical spacial relevance. It would be like a half-orc trying to fit in a halfling's handbag. He is just too big to fit. The argument you will use for that is HiPS is a supernatural ability. The supernatural aspect is the ability to use shadows for concealment in which to hide, normally only found by objects large enough to conceal the character trying to hide.

Frankly, the description says nothing about the shadowdancer having to fit inside the shadow. The only thing it states is that the Shadowdancer can hide herself in the open without anything to actually hide behind. The word anything implies that it also includes shadows. Therefore, we are dealing with a supernatural ability that provides total concealment when 10 feet away from shadows, until spotted.

As for objects having to be larger than the person for someone to hide behind, it is wrong too. That depends on the conditions. And you should not forget how in PnP, even the concealment of 1% is enough to allow anyone hide in plain sight. Hide skill allows you yo use your concealment as the 'cover.' Though it is worth to mention how 'concealment' usually amounts to a 20% miss chance.

And as in real life, most hand bags seems to be bags of holding. Hence, I see no problems fitting a half-orc or two inside.

Fading away, pulling and spinning shadows, bamfing... like Nightcrawler.... or whatever you fancy... is not how a dancer hides. They move... or leap... to the shadow and use it to conceal themselves. Now.. about bamfing... a ninja with a smoke bomb would be awesome!

If you object my character using her supernatural ability to pull and spin shadows as if they were fabric to acquire her total concealment until spotted, then I am forced to object your claim of moving or leaping into a shadow. You are not using shadow jump. You are hiding in plain sight, and in this game, you simply fade away. End of story.

[dzidek1983]

is there a church of Chauntea near Baldurs Gate?

[Valefort]

There's a shrine next to the bridge in wyrm's crossing, on Baldur's Gate's side, apart from that I think that is all.

[Nihm]

If you object my character using her supernatural ability to pull and spin shadows as if they were fabric to acquire her total concealment until spotted, then I am forced to object your claim of moving or leaping into a shadow.

Are you saying you are going to disagree with me simply because I disagree with you..? Simian... stop trolling...

[dzidek1983]

There's a shrine next to the bridge in wyrm's crossing, on Baldur's Gate's side, apart from that I think that is all.

i mean it doesnt have to be IG on the server maybe close is some city etc.

[Akroma666]

What and her people. I read a lot about what in my faiths and pantheons source book so she's of the table, but I'm curious of her people. Apparently there is a language? And I believe a people called Sharrite's? Where can I read more for my new char?

This is all for the new class coming out, the shadow adept. I always loved the shadow weave, so this is perfect. I made a black haired temptress that spits on most other gods when brought up, talking of the only true god.

[18Rabbit]

All of this arguing about shadows I think people are losing sight of the fact that both PnP and NWN2 are GAMES and that PnP D&D isn't NWN2. NWN2 is based on PnP but there are LOTS of places where they differ because the PnP system either wasn't balanced, was too hard to implement in a video game or just didn't work in this setting. All of this "Source Book" bible thumping is kind of pointless. Even the NWN2 Shadowdancer is different from the BGSTCC version so maybe everyone should ease up a bit.

As for the original question:

Can shadow dancers hide in a sorcerer's/Wizard's Shadow Shield, or other illusion spells that conjure up Shadowstuff?
...
It came up ICly when Hoihe demonstrated Shadow Shield to a Shadowdancer, and I'm not sure whether it'd work or not. Hoihe's reply was : "While I think technically it might work, considering my excellent ability to control my spells.. it's too dangerous." Or, at least something like that.

I would say that the shield is probably casting a shadow but that it is not itself a little s shadow, it's more of a warping of the material plane with the parallel plane of capital S Shadows and isn't something I'd want to try and stand in even as a Shadowdancer.