I hope this can be made a Class Rule

[Weavron]

I believe that Blood Magus shouldn't be allowed to be mixed with Shadow Adept and Pale Master and Frost Mage. I should say, in any arrangement of trying to combine them. Now, before anything gets their panties twisted, I would like to explain why. For those of you reading this, I'd very much like your opinion on it both in nay say, or agreement. Just remember, constructive only.

Blood Magus (BM) is a class of magic that completely focuses on your character using the power of his blood, or there being in his blood, to influence the abilities of his magic. I.E. When they cut their selves, using their blood for the material cost instead of actual components: fire ball to bat wing. Blood Magus, if any of you read it, is a very exact school. Those who study it, and aim to master it, spend their time mastering their own blood as well as learning on how to control the blood of others, it is because of this you close CL: it's time not spent studying Arcane.

Now then, Pale Master is also the same. A Pale Master must first spend a week or more, some say a night, in a room locked up with an undead. Like BM, they spend much of their time studying "what" they want to accomplish and that is a knock on their CL, also the class itself is "not" completely arcane centric. Pale Master is focusing on a school of Necromancy that has divine infusions into it, further more it is a class "Similar" to the path of Lich Hood, but it is NOT the same. Both classes are "focuses" in fields of arcane that are extensively studied and there is a large ground of rp to them.

Now then, for the last one. Shadow Adept, like the fore-mentioned two, SA is class that is completely focuses on a substance of magic - in this case a whole different Weave all together (with this server's home brewness mixed with it.) Mind you, I am not explaining these out to full detail because you can easily read the class description. Never-the-less, SA focus on their magics very exclusively.


Because of the nature of each one of these classes, the dynamics of combining them in an RP sense are just not realistic, nor intuitive. I've explained, in minor detail, the classes. However, now I want to explain why it makes no sense.

For one, because each class takes so much time. Saying your character studies both is merely power gaming, it's godmoding in a way to say you're character is so good he can do two PRC in one that require complete devotion of your time. Furthermore, PM focuses on "death" while BM's focus is on blood which means that in a way combining them is a contradiction of the class in and of itself. Furthermore, SA purpose is 100% different from the other two all together so combing any of the three is rather ridiculous.


Now then, just in case someone wants to bring up Red Wizard, Arch Mage, and or Arcane Scholar I will go about explaining why "these" classes, to some extent" "do" make sense.

I'll start with Red Wizard..... For one, RW is, unto itself pretty much an Arch Mage class of it's own. In fact, in thayan lore not all "red wizards" take it at the start some of them go on into lvl 14 or so before even beginning it at all. I can see why some class combinations with it might be against the rules, it would simply be too "op" being that class gives you good CL as it is without much of a cost but outside of the OPness, I see no reason why it couldn't combine with BM or SA ect.....

ArchMage.... you should know what this is, it's kind of hard not to but I'll go a head and say it. An Arch Mage is an extremely season Mage that picks a line of magic and hones it more thuroughly, even to the point of likely focusing on "magic" energy in and of itself to it's base essence. AM should be looked at as a Modifying class... .example

Wizard/Frost Mage/ Arch Mage


A Wizard who studied into the Primal-frost of the cold plane (Frost mage) to such an extent that they are very, very, well versed in it (AM coming into effect here.)

Now while at this point I'll note Arcane Scholar as a modifying class as well in sense that while AM may be studying the rawness of it, AS would be more of a Sholary, sage like advancement into it ((specially sense it also raises DC by +2))

Here is an example for it. Wizard/Shadow Adept/AS = A wizard who dived into Shar's domain (SA) and then thoroughly began to quantitatively research it (AS part)

That is all of my rambling for now, I hope I've made it clear why I believe they should not be coming.... in a short summary? They shouldn't be combine because each one is a specific field that requires too much time and purpose and lore to becoming with others accurately.

I hope this can be made a rule.

[Nomster]

Surely the above is more true to wizards who actually do study than sorcerers who more often than not have no clue what they're doing?

I don't see classes as professions. When someone introduces themselves as their base class and all their prestige classes I cringe a little. In the cases where someone has many prestige classes, they often dabble and don't become a master. And in the cases they do... well, our characters are above the commoner. They are extraordinary. While it may not make sense to master knowledge in two distinct fields, our characters just might have a rare ability to do so. Besides, I'm sure that someone who wants to connect their build choices with RP reasons will find a clever way of justifying their classes.

[Weavron]

This topic is gearing these classes as what they are meant to be in RP.... Fields of focus. Not so much "Profession." Hence why combining them is bad.... It'd be like being a Digger all your life, and then trying rocket science immediately after.

Also, furthermore, there "are" ways to do this without completely ignoring what the class means. Lets say Person A is a Pale Master/Blood Mage that studies life and death?

That is fine and all, there is no issue with that but the PRC is what the issue is. Those two PRC have a very "specific' lore to them and by using them to justify your Character concept, you completely ignore "what" those fields of magic mean.

Pale Master is "very" different from Blood Magus and if you want to rp studying life and death then that isn't the way to go about it. A simple Wizard/PM would do that just fine since necromancy is in and of itself the Study of Life and Death. The person trying to force Blood Magus in for the study of life doesn't understand what Blood magus is... The notion of a Blood magus is someone who focuses in Blood magic "more" than any other field of magic. Meaning you're taking 2 prc that essentially ignore each other and then saying they support one another.

In effect - god modding.

For a better comparing? It's like.. . taking 1 lvl of Bard then 5 lvls of fighter and then 10 RDD.... and saying you used your arcane to become half dragon....

[Weavron]

http://merung.net/DandD3.5/3.5%20D&D%20 ... Arcane.pdf

Here, I hope this helps. 3.5 it has information on these prc.

Here is Book of the Dead -

http://www.themarcia.com/RPGA/DnD35refe ... Mortis.pdf

it has the Pale Master in it I believe.

[Simian]

I believe that Blood Magus shouldn't be allowed to be mixed with Shadow Adept and Pale Master and Frost Mage.

Blood Magus/Shadow Adept: I do not see why this combination should be banned. One could have easily lead to the other as both are trades studied in the shadows.

Blood Magus/Pale Master: I do not think this is such unlikely match as it might seem to be. Blood Magus focuses mastering his own blood. While a Pale Master aims transform his body in the direction of undead. Pale Masters do not become undeads, and Blood Mugus is not the embodiment of positive energy. Both aim to modify the body of the arcanist by means that are not that different.

Blood Magus/Frost Mage: Frost and Blood. I hail from the Northern Europe where you got long dark winters and lots and lots of snow. And when I think of this class combination, I think of blood stained snow and it works. I cannot explain it better. Blood and Ice - two native elements of the North?


Now, I would be keen on issuing multiclassing rules if these PRCs would not be limited to just ten or so levels. Once you get that tenth level, you have completed that path to power, and you have to look elsewhere.

[NeOmega]

I agree on three, PM, frostmage and blood magus should not go into each others lines of work, unless they have a realy well written story, maybe a cross between blood and PM.

But shadow adept is a little different, I think, because a shadow adept could be say a frost mage or PM or blood magus trying to tap the shadow to make their own line of specialty even stronger. Plus, shadow adept is application only, so no big deal.

[Weavron]

I believe that Blood Magus shouldn't be allowed to be mixed with Shadow Adept and Pale Master and Frost Mage.

Blood Magus/Shadow Adept: I do not see why this combination should be banned. One could have easily lead to the other as both are trades studied in the shadows.

Blood Magus/Pale Master: I do not think this is such unlikely match as it might seem to be. Blood Magus focuses mastering his own blood. While a Pale Master aims transform his body in the direction of undead. Pale Masters do not become undeads, and Blood Mugus is not the embodiment of positive energy. Both aim to modify the body of the arcanist by means that are not that different.

Blood Magus/Frost Mage: Frost and Blood. I hail from the Northern Europe where you got long dark winters and lots and lots of snow. And when I think of this class combination, I think of blood stained snow and it works. I cannot explain it better. Blood and Ice - two native elements of the North?


Now, I would be keen on issuing multiclassing rules if these PRCs would not be limited to just ten or so levels. Once you get that tenth level, you have completed that path to power, and you have to look elsewhere.

I highly, highly, recommend you read the lore I posted for you to have a better understand. I also recommend you read what it means to be a wizard, you do not seem to understand, no offense, what these classes mean.

Shadow Adept is the study of the Shadow Weave... it has nothing to do with a full focus in those schools. Sure, the shadow weave can use any school of magic but it's focus really is on Shadow Magic (in and of itself) and illusion.

It's important to read the lore and to know what these classes mean. You should understand that these clases are "indept" focus.... You do not have to have them to rp a Shadow Mage who uses blood spells... that is fine, but a Blood Magus is on a whole different level all together. A frost mage literally changes half of his race, due to the prime frost he works with that is how advance that is.


I should also note.... This is not "pnp" obviously, like these PNP classes are meant for.... there is a lot of lore... work that goes into them and in this game you just really lvl with no real monitoring of your progression on those classes... you should realize that these classes require a lot of work/study and from what I understand by an ic sense... from what I've been told a lvl 30 is considered in idea to be like a lvl 15 pnp standing ((Since epic are near godly lvls or around that)) So by the perspective... you're always also studying those fields.

It's important to realize that 10/10 BM doesn't mean that RP is over... there is always growth and stuff to do with it just as there is for PM and SA and FM. what this post is truly about is making sure there is an awareness also to what these classes really mean... it's like trying to combine a Pale Master uses divine magic in it. Shadow Adept uses the Shadow Weave specifically, Blood Magic relies in your blood and your focus and understanding of its soul importance.... Frost mage realies on the Perma Frost, I thin kit's in one of those two PDF if not I'll add it too.... Each one has something "very" specific it nails on above all other things.

[Azmodeth]

yeah but its overly complicating the rules, and guidelines, IMO. Why not just remember the first rule is have fun ..with undertones of respect lore and the rules and other players etc...

Just leave other people to focus their own concepts why they are what classes they are . . its like philosophy, we will each have different reasons/idea's why and how a character is different classes, and such.. so, IMO making any new ruling about it, would not be that productive, though, your reasoning for it IC related and such has very strong arguments for each of those classes, but then we'd have to balances the same with warrior classes and other class combo's too.. would be and exponential amount of work...

[Weavron]

yeah but its overly complicating the rules, and guidelines, IMO. Why not just remember the first rule is have fun ..with undertones of respect lore and the rules and other players etc...

Just leave other people to focus their own concepts why they are what classes they are . . its like philosophy, we will each have different reasons/idea's why and how a character is different classes, and such.. so, IMO making any new ruling about it, would not be that productive, though, your reasoning for it IC related and such has very strong arguments for each of those classes, but then we'd have to balances the same with warrior classes and other class combo's too.. would be and exponential amount of work...

Please refer to my statement when I began this, it's for a discussion. I am aiming to gauge people's reation to my suggestion and to see if others agree or disagree with it. I know Wolfrayne does and many others I've talked to as well.

True, the first rule is about having fun... but we don't do that by running around as a Drow Palain on the surface that then proceeds to join the Radient Heart, now why is that? The same should apply to other classes as well.

[AC81]

Firstly, I don't play a combination of those classes, but I think that anyone that wants to should be able to. I think saying that those that do are 'godmoding' is a bit harsh tbh. We're not playing pnp here, we're playing nwn2, and we have restrictions. Players (many of whom do not have a pnp background) can only assemble PC's based on the information presented to them in the IG class descriptions. Keep things sensible, sure, I'm all for (ie no surface wandering drow paladins like you said) but let's keep the IC and OOC elitism away from this server. Keep in mind this is a dying game, hardcore RP rules will drive more away than it attracts.

[Lockonnow]

well i'll think each guild sould have there owe wizard class so it will be more RP way then poverhood

[Weavron]

Calling it "elitism" is bias. I am only stating it is a good idea, a suggestion if you will, to follow the rules of a PRC. It is not elitism when someone points out that PRCs are being used incorrectly and then proceeds to private lore to validate it with proper lore. It would be elitism however it I begrudgingly attacked everyone comments without subsequently adding reason as to why.

Saying a drow paladin was going over board, but if I wanted to make a more adequate example - well then Paladin + Barberian... that is essentially what is going on, it is senseless to say "oh let everyone do what ever they want, because of this." If that was the case, then why even regulate how many cleric levels you have to take? Or even that you follow the proper domains for that matter. This is "Faerün" after all, and there is context that goes with it.

Furthermore, and I mean no offense, yet, but you failed to, as for the other before you, failed to see this is merely a suggestion based on logic backed by source information. Having your opinion is nice and all but it is a bit idiotic to call this elitism so blatantly. I hope I am not telling you anything knew but... there is lore to a PRC.... the lore has information that tells you how the class is constructed and further more how it works.... ignoring this for your own desires is nice and all but it defeats the purpose of what that class means and slaughters any beauty to it.

There are plenty of ways of rping out your concepts that make your, if you actually play with these prcs, so great without over doing it. God mode is explained by making your character omnipotent...... ya... that is what is happening when you're coming Pale Master and Frost mage.. Pale Master is Arcane Combine with divine magic which has a, I cannot stress this enough, very specific purpose to it. Frost mage also has a very specific purpose, it revolves around your character anchoring himself, and changing half his race, to that of a cold type which in effect makes him immune to cold but 50% weak to fire...... Those two fields are "not" related and how you get to them in rp is "not" similar in the end game... sure... the "lower" bottom undefined bottom is..... but you can't say... OH Weapon master can punch.. ohhh.... frenzy beserker can punch - THEIR SPECIAL ABILITIES MUST BE THE SAME.... it doesn't work that way, sure their foundation is similar but the idea that incases it is not......

[Wolfrayne]

In the end it all comes down to what the DM say is and isnt ok, I do agree though that different forms of "tapping in to magic" should not cross.

[roke42]

Saying a drow paladin was going over board, but if I wanted to make a more adequate example - well then Paladin + Barberian... that is essentially what is going on, it is senseless to say "oh let everyone do what ever they want, because of this."

During character development it is possible to get some odd class combinations, due to changes in your character. The best example would be the fallen Paladin, e.g. Paladin/Blackguard.

But to get back to topic:

Death is the ultimate risk that spellcasters, like all adventurers, must contend with. Some are cut down before they have a chance at true glory; others fi nd true peace only in the afterlife; and others are brought back from death by companions with the powerful magical resources to perform such a miracle. For a rare few such arcanists, this trip to the great beyond and back brings a new enlightenment — a comprehension of the body and its individual parts that transcends the understanding of those who have not experienced death and returned to tell the tale. These newly raised spellcasters say that the fi rst sound they hear upon returning to life is the pulse of life-giving blood in their veins. To these fortunate few, this fl ow of blood through their veins is sweet music: the sound of life. They can feel it reenergizing every particle of their form, flushing death away and leaving life in its place. It is thick and warm, and they greedily embrace it. Such arcane spellcasters become blood magi: formerly deceased spellcasters who, when returned to life, gain an understanding of their blood’s importance, bequeathed by their close call. They learn to evoke magic from this vital fluid that sustains their lives. Blood magi cannot be trained, owing to the unusual nature of their enlightenment, and they are most likely to have first been sorcerers.
NPC blood magi are thus rarely, if ever, found in groups. They are more likely to be thinly scattered throughout a region’s spellcaster population.
Adaptation: A twist on the blood magus as presented here would be to tie the class to some deity or entity. Whenever the blood magus works his blood magic, he also gives blood sacrifice to the deity or entity so named, and it is through this bloody patron that the blood magus powers his magic.

What I get from there: Blood Magic seems to be some kind of supernatural ability, like the power sorcerers wield. So I think learning a Blood Magus' abilities wouldn't be that much time consuming and leaving room to focus on something else as well, like frost mage, for example.
It's also stated here that Blood Magic can have a divine part, like there is for Pale Master. Why shouldn't this be able to be combined?

I agree that combining Blood Magus with one of them is a bit unusual, but still not impossible.

[Azmodeth]

I think its a valid discussion, I didn't mean offense or anything, and I did read what you wrote, but in the context of BG, theres many many classes... the same issue can arise form many combinations..

a paladin Drow CAN technically exist.. not very likely, definitely not usual in lore, but leave it to the player to go through those growing pains haha..

but IC reasoning/experience can lead a character to fully develop being a palemaster, a frostmage, and a archmage all in the same life time...

what if, for instance, it was a half elf... combine the human tendancy to live life to its fullest and go around exploring and dabbling much quicker and the resources and longer life of the half elven part of the person to fully go in depth into each of those studies...

the hard part in justifying , is how does a character who starts the game as 19-20 years old by the end of the year become one of the stronger characters on the sword coast and participate in many wars and accumulate tons of knowledge in ANY field never mind mastering it..

in RL they say after 10,000 hours of doing something your an expert, in the arcane arts, that's like saying your ready to do cantrips.. then only a few months later - your level 30...

so, theres much that doesn't make sense. You have to drop the realistic line somewhere, is what I mean, in such cases, maybe the character is a prodigy, and just sort of ignores the flow of time IC to not justify realism, maybe a few weeks they are class X and abit later they delve into class Y and then class Z and find some common ground and keep all of the related fields of each class in interest.

MECHANICALLY - I believe prestige classes could be made to have level/class restrictions/xp penalties... possibly, for varying levels too far away from each other ... once you hit 4 classes, imagine having a 40% xp penalty or something or worse...

That might make things abit more realistic for you, too much on the mind, trying to do the insane all at the same time, huge balancing act... idk.. just some thoughts..

but in the end, is this worthwhile or even fun... maybe it would take away from the game.
Does the fact that others can play their class combinations as they like bother you ?
Or is there some other reason behind it, is it JUST those mage classes itself ? Or like your example of a DROW Palladin, it refers to every combination that's unlikely and far-fetched?

If such restrictions existed, would you be playing on this server? What if all your classes levels had to be pre-approved for instance, by a DM... and say that delayed taking your next level sometimes by a few days, to prove yourself, in lore and in RP and such, would you still be playing here, would this be the same server?

Would this be the same server it is, if a palemaster/frostmage/archmage-bloodmage was impossible or whatever combo....

I don't think it would be, sometimes, people just waited months for these to come out of QC/testing just to reroll a new toon and have fun with it for abit.

What I encouraged players that are new, I tell them, find one class inside the classes you play, and make it yours. Make it the one you RP heavily, that becomes your known Identity, or maybe a few things - find some synergy.

as An example, I created a character for a friend, one with daggerspell and arcane trickster and rogue. Day 1 I in RP made them promise to NEVER use anything but a dagger - literally spent a dozen hours in RP making them fight nearly immune monsters with the same daggers - doing near nothing with them, until I was satisfied they'd never stop using them, even if it was mechanically better... .. in RP, we made it so they slept with them, breathed while holding them, and ate not with a fork or knife but the daggers themselves, they started to cast spells - I made them wear light armor to introduce arcane spell failure (10%) from lvl 6+ just to IC represent the fact they won't even let go of their daggers when casting spells... and always trying to concentrate on throwing them and other interesting things...

No joke - this person had the hardest time, but managed to rp it and stick to it - and died many many times..

made sure they didn't take the last level of dagger spell, until they were ready to move away from their mentor and travel on their own, and at the same time, take the first auto-still spell feats - and continue wearing armor...

The character might be a rogue, and a trickters, but they were merely training, and not their devoted lifestyle, they identified to some small parts of the other classes, but focus'd RP on one..

I myself, even before I could cast spells in armor, always wore armor and wore a shield, and accepted spell failure, to explain the overcoming of such things..

As an example this was Azmodeth, who is a frostmage - but has overtime, been many different classes, including archmage, palemaster, bloodmage, Scholar -etc..

When she heavily had many pupil/apprentices, the Archmage class was more apparent, and teaching the art and such, many spent hours on end in rp with her doing just that, for no other particular reason, but as students moved on, and Azmodeth had time to be herself again, she could recall her initial calling and even go through an RCR, and take up the ways of the scholar instead, but firstmost - a frostmage.

everything else was secondary. Even when she had apprentices, the frostmage wa snever discarded and was always slightly rp'd in there as well, its like when you at work, you put on your work face, but when you hit the bar with your buddies after - your in GAME ON mode, and then you come home to your family and maybe put on a different face, some people have more or less...

but, theres always the original person underthere somewhere, something that make them who they are, specific traits that stick and define them, things that always shine through - no matter the face/role.

I personally believe, its that that is more important, and more fun, and should be encouraged more so then - restricting classes. The spirit of the game - is to just have fun, without wasting too much time trying to justify everything...

I hope my criticsm was well met, I mean to truly show some of my experience in playing on PWs in this post. Ive seen servers with heavy restrictions, and Ive seen those without... these are my 2 cents..