What CR content is needed for the Underdark?

[DMogorgon]

@ servin.

1st & 3rd mistakes: what do you think the point of threads like this is?

2nd & 4th mistake: I've seen only a handful of UD communiques with the DM team in the last 6 months or so. And UD threads are quiet. It starts with players, not DM's. Also, be persistent and remember you are trying to attract our attention. And remember we are volunteers, and there are never 'enough' staff resources to go around. If your approach staff negatively you are unlikely to get them to contribute their free time towards your interests.

5th mistake: A dedicated UD DM appointment has been a fast-track to DM retirement in all the cases you mentioned and then some... and the only DM retirement announcements I can recall which didn't start with "hey guys, I just got a promotion IRL..."

Final Thoughts: always accepting applications for people who want to dev and DM.

[Servin]

@ servin.

1st & 3rd mistakes: what do you think the point of threads like this is?

To be honest I'm not sure. The question is about how to enhance grinding. The UD community is not about grinding. How about you open a thread about the UD suggestions and comment on all replies that come in? This would get you basic research to understand the requirements. Closed questions do not help and forcing misplaced updates can work against the community.

2nd & 4th mistake: I've seen only a handful of UD communiques in the last 6 months or so. Be persistent. And remember we are volunteers, if your approach staff negatively you are unlikely to get them to contribute their free time towards your RP.

And how many communiques do surfacers need to send to get attention? How many surface events are not sparked by a communique?

Also the UD staff in the past know very well that they get credit where's it's due, but they are also open to honesty, sometimes harsh. Mentioning Strahd or Absolution almost in every UD development thread by myself - the DM criticiser, is best proof of that.

5th mistake: A dedicated UD DM appointment has been a fast-track to DM retirement in all the cases you mentioned and others...

And many other factors have been the same for DM's on the surface. Truth be told surface DM's tend to leave faster than UD DM's so I do not believe this to be a valid point. But if you really wish to pin it down to a DM being designated to the UD, perhaps looking into history of your inner boards, see how many requests for support have you guys turned down, because it was to do with the UD.

I'm not implying anything if there were any, but perhaps the staff does not accommodate the needs of the UD DM, as he requires more attention than all the others, given they're lone for the whole section of heavy RP community.

[Nyeleni]

I hate to say it, but Rainbow Prism is right. You (OP, not Rasael) should plan your development better, because currently I see it all in chaos.

First mistake: I see no research on what the population in the UD is like. And it's mainly devoted RPers and not grinders. That might be because...

Second mistake: Unlike the surface, we need to raise our own initiatives (sometimes rejected, what also affects morale) to get any DM attention, so the DM's hardly know who we are and what we do.

Third mistake: Because of lack of proper research you offer them development that would greatly affect the population in the UD, making it more attractive to grinding than the great RP there is down there.

Fourth mistake: Whenever an angry player like myself raises their voice because they feel neglected as a UD population, the staff are becoming arrogant and ignore the call.

Fifth mistake: I'm not dismissing the latest activity of the DM's in the UD and wish to thank you for it, given this opportunity. But if you at least had one effing UD DM down there full time, of Strahd or Absolution calibre and you would listen to what they're saying, myself, Rainbow Prism, Storm Munin, Roke42, Empoweredfan and many other people wouldn't be telling you in this thread that you brought sand to the beach.

wow, place a rant warning, "dude". I hate that word btw.

Then try it with humility. Nobody owes you anythinig. As DMogorgon said they do it in their free time.

Be thankful the UD exists in the first place.

And lastly bring something to the table, yourself - for instance open the toolset and try the developing of an area - in case you havent already... It's not that easy... Only demanding has something of a spoiled child?



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And you cannot compare the UD to the surface. UD is somehow like a spin off, certainly worse off. But nonetheless there.

[Servin]

Ignoring the banter above...

@Ogorgon
If you'd employ a structure of development, things would be better for both yourselves and us. This is a more less of an outlining one, but if the dev team uses a different methodology, perhaps it's good to ask them how they approach tasks.

1) Planning - You realise there are resources to employ in producing content. You need to understand the server needs and the needs of the players of that part of the survey. If you do not know the players and their needs, research needs to be conducted to investigate.

Main task - Listen and discuss with regards to all ideas.

Unknown players: An 'ice-breaker' thread needs to be started with staff actively participating in it. Players will provide ideas, as long as they realise that they are being listened to and it's not a thread that nothing comes out of it. If an idea is rubbish, explain reasons why. Perhaps the players response will change the staffs mind or vice-versa. Once a collective of ideas appears, do a summary post in more less of a priority order of what would be worked on.

Known players: Area is known to the staff. All that's required is confirmation from the players that you got it right. A summary post will do, but should more suggestions appear, those can be briefly discussed.

Do not enforce ideas, rather patiently explain reasoning. You may have the last word, but be prepared to back down if it's the players that are right and not the staff.

As long as the player's voices are heard, you are yet to get somewhere with that. But if you create a product for non-existing customers, you're not going to earn any money. Similarly, if you do something that's of no interest to players, you waste everyone's time.

Motto: If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

2) Design - This is where you put ideas to work with each others or with what's already out there. New areas to the map are given a location, transition nodes etc. Areas are designed etc. The DM staff offers lore support when requested, should the dev team require it, even if it's about what colour of fungi grows in the corridors.

Main task - Create a vision of the solution. If it's a scripting thingamabob, present code structure, layout of the interface, etc. If it's a map area, it can be a sketch done in paint or any other graphics program.

You get brownie points for showing it out to players. It proves you're doing progress, maintain communication and keep them happy and me shut.

Target: Get the designs approved.

Motto: If you want to be praised, encourage us with reasons to do so. Also, communication is key.

/behind the curtains steps/ - I won't tell you how to suck eggs guys. History proves the dev team can deliver so there is hardly anything for me to say here. Briefly, for interested parties:
3) Build.
4) Test.
5) Fix bugs aka go back to step 3. If there aren't any (left), go to step 6.

If the project is cancelled/paused - tell players about it.

/back to public view/

6) Announce release - this springs happiness and proves communication is useful.

Or... The alternative is to get used to discussions on a similar level.

[Nyeleni]

Keep ignoring me but one advice: change your demands from "you have to" to "I would do it so and so". It will make you much more agreeable.

[Servin]

If being friends with the staff is the only way to get them to see right, then I'm (and many people more are) wasting my/their time and keyboard(s). I'm sure this is not the case, but two years of being polite resulted in no serious UD development at all. People start to see red by now.

Also, please do not derail this thread. You can start my fan/hate thread in the community section and post your comments regarding my person there. I shall give it as much attention as it requires.

[Eden]

I still don't understand why con can have it all and still complain about "grinding areas".
Every area on the server, except the cities and the FAI, is a grinding area.
So what? It would be much more constructive asking for those new areas to have some RP incentive.
Since we're playing dungeons and dragons, just let others have the chance to kill the dragons, you can have rp wherever you want, incouding dungeons.
Every area is functional to something. Take boareskyr bridge, had a merchant + spawns + a ruin to rp.
So, since you can have it all, I don't see where the problem is. Best chance would be not putting RP against grinding, but seeing them both as a part of the fun.

[DM Mouse]

Hey guys, it's pretty simple. This thread posed the question what CR content is needed for the UD; this is strictly a question about what level areas are needed as they pertain to Challenge Ratings, better known as the difficulty of an encounter with the enemies involved there.

This isn't a call for what social RP areas you want added. This isn't a thread to debate with each other how an overworked staff member not even participating in the discussion should be spending his time.

You may start new threads if you wish to discuss those off-topic things.
Please keep my words in mind for future responses to this thread because I'm going to be watching it very closely now.

[Eclypticon]

I voted, but as for a grinding area, I would suggest alternative farming areas. I would reply to some of the stuff brought up here, but I am going to stick on topic.

[mar3usmc]

Time goes on and things never change.

As far as I recall, there are not many locations for low level players to start gaining experience. I created one for low level parties, but some people I guess find it too challenging, while others I hear enjoy it. Also, as I recall there are not many, or perhaps no, quests for characters of the levels 1-3. Level 3 is pushing it depending on the class for the escaped kobolds/goblins quest. So I guess the low levels could use a little love.

As for the mid range 5-20, imo it is fine relative to the other levels.

For 20+ you tend to run into a rather steep curve. If you have a party or are a FS PB you can manage ok in the one epic area and the wilds with the Driders. No real areas to solo in epic levels that are worth while though. Which isn't bad really, except that there are just so few players in the UD, and this is suppose to be a social game. The Netherese Labyrinth (your welcome ) isn't designed for long stays, and definitely not for grinding. It is an adventure/buffer map designed to challenge the player.... among other things. So that really shouldn't be counted toward epic locations.

So yea, low levels and high levels is really where the UD lacks a bit.

[Blackman D]

And UD threads are quiet.

this is a private forum tho and im like the only one who has access thats not a dev

id guess its a quiet forum tho bc there are no devs working on anything at the moment that requires building

It starts with players, not DM's.

definitely agree with this tho, the UD improvement forum was started in the first place because players wanted an upgrade

[Rainbow Prism]

Servin, you are overdoing it. Contain the walls of text, or decrease font to make it look smaller. It annoys staff.

Dear staff, I believe there is another thread about areas in suggestions thread, but without any feedback, players feel that you ignore their requests. Put at least anything for reply to let them know their opinions have been heard or that you do not care. Silence can be seen in many ways.

Not everyone screams for attention on subforum designed exclusively for RP. Therefore, you will no longer find much in UD discussion threads, cause some players are a bit busy, or just plain tired to remind of lacking resources.



As for the CR areas... I do not see problem in low level zones as much as the problem is that many players use high ECL races, making these zones redundant. Also, instead of asking for help when they cannot beat slime/skeleton damage reduction, they move elsewhere.

Speaking of Netherese Ruins (thank you), it lost it's main feature. I see players coming in on scryer without going into Underdark/Surface, which probably means that they come for grinding/looting. And these are characters who walk through it in no time.
Everyone knows that word Lesser in magma golems is just scarecrow (not that it matters, they manage to kill it in 10 seconds by group), since there is no normal Magma golem.
Many epic character players already remembered (or written up) the way through maze. In fact, it stops anyone but most old players, who happen to make their excuse for RP far from their spawning grounds.
The teleport is nice, but it's fixed location transition, which, I already said, can be remembered. Average powerbuild character can move through it alone in five-ten minutes. Groups only take longer because they are acting like tour guides for less powerful characters.

[Rasael]

About this topic
DMogorgons comments are intended without any implication regarding what the staff has time for pursuing currently. You should see this topic as a way for the DM's to gauge which kinds of areas the Underdark could use.

They will fit that into their development goals for the Underdark, which are more expansive than adding new areas for CR ranges.

This topic really has no bearing on the S'shsamath update that is pending. That update is fairly complex and we have a lot of other content pending as well. This topic on the other hand is not about content that has been developed and is pending for implemention. Instead it is about formulating a design framework of ideas and plans which will be developed at some point.

It is perfectly okay to suggest other things that the Underdark needs in your opinion, in another topic meant for that. The staff will happily take note of that and discuss it with you. Just don't agro them by making it personal, because that's discouraging as Rainbow Prism wrote. These people including myself are volunteers who are trying their best to help out in the time they have for this hobby. But it has to be fun. No body pursues a hobby that isn't fun.


My suggestion
My own personal view is that I would like some more or less empty travel areas with random encounters and randomly no encounters at all. Preferably with flavour scripting, which isn't too hard to do. So that you can get a heads up if a beastie happens to be on your trail, or has a visible / smellable lair up ahead at an intersection.

And perhaps some random encounters with other travelers, in those areas. I believe this was suggested by other people as well.

It would make the Underdark bigger and more varied. Plus it would make it more dangerous and unpredictable like it ought to be. And then we can give native Underdark races a bonus to detecting threats, where surfacers would be far more likely to run into them headlong. It would also make tracking and the survival skill more usefull.

If that works then we could look at copying that mechanic and applying it on some surface areas as well. For more random and unpredictable wild life and bandits.

[Empoweredfan]

Random encounters? I love the idea (especially given time to avoid them). =)

[Rainbow Prism]

Drow/duergar/orc/tanarukk bandits, Umber Hulks slamming outta the wall, carrion crawlers/slimes dropping from the ceiling, Driders showing up after you get into web...

In essence, all creatures of Underdark are supposed to attack by random encounter ambushes and I feel that they must be much more frequent than on surface.