Awaken Sin as a Poor Man's Detect Evil

[SandTrout]

Recently I got into a disagreement with a player regarding Awaken Sin. It was used on an evil character, in what was latter declared by all parties to be invalid PvP, and therefore the the specific incident in question would be ignored. However, it did leave open a question.

If the subject of Awaken Sin makes their will save (and therefor suffers no ill effect) can the cleric still determine that the character is evil?

My opinion of the matter is that since the spell did no affect the subject, the Cleric cannot use that as evidence of alignment. IC.

The other player's opinion is that because there is a different feedback if AS is used on a neutral or good character, as opposed to the will save, the cleric can know that the subject was forced to make a will save.

As I understand it, Detect Evil is not allowed on the sever because of it's penchant for abuse. I would think that Awaken Sin would fall under the same category, provided the subject passes the will save.

[Considerate_]

Hello SandTrout

The lines between what's IC and what's ooc Knowledge can be tricky, I'm pleased to hear this particular incident was resolved peacefully players in between.

The exact results of what happens in the combat log is not known to our characters. we don't know that we hit Bob the paladin for 80 damage, they do know that they landed a solid hit though.

So, how does this translate into the realms of spells? Personally I'd argue that a spell caster Knows whether or not a target resisted a spell.

However, I'd also argue that the spell would require a saving throw from any target. Regardless of alignment. So inferring that the target is Evil from a failed saving throw, is about as Valid as throwing witches into the river, and Burning them if they don't drown.

on another note, I hope it wasn't a good or lawful character who pulled that stunt. Running around and randomly smiting people with dive'ne magic to see if they're evil or not, seems like a certain way to get an alignment shift.

[Nomster]

I would guess at... that the caster doesn't know why his spell failed. It could be because the target succeeded the save or is good/neutral.

Evidence of alignment doesn't count for much, actually. So you found out a fellow is evil. Then what? Bring him to court on the grounds that "this man is evil". You need evidence of his evil actions, his crimes.

[arakes99]

Why are people so determined to prove someone is evil using game mechanics? It ruins intrigue and detracts from RP. If you think someone is a bad person, RP them that way. If you know they are involved in illegal or evil (These should be synonymous but are often not) then RP it that way and see what follows.

If you kill someone just because you used some spell or trick to identify their alignment you are guilty of a crime and that crime is murder. It may not be reported or enforced but by the law of the lands you are now a murderer and one that basically metagamed the point. However, had you Rped the situation out some very interesting things could come along. Rumors, innuendo, spying on the enemy make for more interesting story telling. Dead people as the result of some cleric/paladins personal suspicions backed up by weakly role played game mechanics do not.

This is the goodly equivalent of evil people that dress in black and kill anyone they come across that looks at them the wrong way because they are EVIL.

[DM Mouse]

Please note that Casting hostile spells at someone who has not consented to pvp is an ooc rules violation. Not only that, everyone there has grounds to pummel you into the dirt on witnessing it, regardless of whether anybody was shown to be evil or not.

So sure, you can use it in combat to test your opponent, but only in combat and if they kill you the knowledge is lost and dies with you.

[SandTrout]

Yes, it makes sense that if in valid combat already, and the subject fails the will save, the observable effects would be evidence of alignment, as limited as that information is. However, that doesn't quite answer the question of a successful will save, resulting in no ill effect.