"Good" Drow....and the Surface.

[Aelcar]

There is no such thing as good drow for the surfacers. Period.

I play an Eilistraeen moon elf which is very much alright according to lore, thank you very much. I also play an educated wizard and follower of Mystra who has met several Eilistraeen (NPC and PCs).

If one thing is CERTAIN, it is that there definitely are good drow for surfacers. The right kind of surfacers. For instance OTHER GOOD DROW WHO LIVE ON THE SURFACE.

No point with the mocking tone, Aelcar...

We ARE discussing serious allowed drow PCs being ALLOWED to be on the surface.

No man, it's not mocking. Allowed Drow PCs LIVE IN THE UD. When I said we were talking about Sshamath, you said "NO! The Surface!!". There's no such a thing as allowed Surface Drow on BGTSCC. I am not mocking in the least bit. This is dead serious.

Then you misunderstand my point. I am questioning the rule, because it contradicts and blatantly ignores lore. Sshamath isn't any part of my concern. Ideally, drows should be allowed to start on the surface (WE ARE RIGHT NEXT TO THE ARDEEP FOREST!) if they choose Eilistraee as patron deity. And Kill after RP rules should be implemented to switch out the immersion breaking (or just usual spiteful griefing - "DROWS SHOULD NOT BE HERE LOLZ IMMA OWN THEM") Kill on Sight rule.[/quote]

1) I dont play any of the above. I dont even play a traditional Drow. It's just as relevant as you playing all you said. Also, I cant help but notice you never mention any timeline about Eiliastree's cult. To my knowledge, the religion will have a modicum of followers in no less than 20/25 years from the current server timeline.
Better if you leave the personal feelings outside any debate in which you KINDLY ASK for something, lest it looks like you DEMAND it.

2)

Ideally, drows should be allowed to start on the surface (WE ARE RIGHT NEXT TO THE ARDEEP FOREST!) if they choose Eilistraee as patron deity. And Kill after RP rules should be implemented to switch out the immersion breaking (or just usual spiteful griefing - "DROWS SHOULD NOT BE HERE LOLZ IMMA OWN THEM") Kill on Sight rule.

Ideally lvl 30 characters would be on their way to immortality. Guess what? You arent alone here. This is an online server. "WE" are nowhere. You cant play a Surface Drow on BGTSCC. Hell, some vouch Drow should be removed altogether...be glad they're available!

If you choose Eiliastree as patron deity, you're one snowflaky drow that AGAINST LORE knows Eiliastree even exists in this timeline. We made sure this could be played at the time, because the staff, now like then, loves players. You can drop the anger, and maybe a "thank you" post to the staff would be nice.

The only immersion breaking here is to see a bunch of good Kumbaja Drow around the campfire, honestly. KoS rule's only problem is that it's a lot of work for the DM team. That's where the PERMADEATH STRIKES come in handy (and are in the rules as well). People take things more seriously that way, in my experience.

[Deathgrowl]

Ideally lvl 30 characters would be on their way to immortality. Guess what? You arent alone here.

Again with the mocking tone, Aelcar. It's not appreciated.

If you choose Eiliastree as patron deity, you're one snowflaky drow that AGAINST LORE knows Eiliastree even exists in this timeline.

Eilistraee reveals herself through dream visions to many, many drow (some don't understand it, others reject her, some secretly long for what she shows them, and some embrace her). There is absolutely nothing to suggest that few drow know that she exist.

We made sure this could be played at the time, because the staff, now like then, loves players. You can drop the anger, and maybe a "thank you" post to the staff would be nice.

Anger? What are you talking about?

The only immersion breaking here is to see a bunch of good Kumbaja Drow around the campfire, honestly.

You're not getting the point! I am saying that the surface view on drows is probably one with suspicion:
While Salvatore's characters aren't particularly deep, nor are his stories, they are based on the lore. Drizzt (and I hate having to bring up this argument, which nevertheless is canon [a brief history of Drizzt is mentioned in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting], because people think it's cool to hate Drizzt, but if it is the only way to get the message across...) came to the surface in 1341, if I recall correctly. By 1347 (three years prior to our current server time) he had he had been rejected - not outright attacked - by surfacers. Dove Falconhand's ranger company, which even had surface elves, even helped him. And Alustriel Silverhand accepted him into Silverymoon. He's not even Eilistraeen, though. This is just an example (or several, actually) of how surfacers could interact when seeing a drow who doesn't actually make hostile moves.

Point is, I don't mind if drows are viewed with huuuuge suspicion and hostility. But as it is now, there's not even a remote chance to become somewhat accepted as a drow on the surface. You can't even live there.

I can make the same argument for the Underdark if you want: Sshamath in lore says that they welcome (but with suspicion) any races that would otherwise be traditional enemies of drow - even surface elves. The population count also says that there is 1% (120ish if going by The Underdark book) free humans living in Sshamath. Yet we're not allowed to start humans there. Deep imaskari are "humans", but they apparently count for 1% on their own apart from the other humans.

What am I saying? That humans should be allowed to start in Sshamath if they so choose, because the lore supports it. But you can't, because the rules say "no".

I don't play a drow. This isn't something I have a personal agenda for. It is because I think we should respect lore and use it as it is for RP opportunities that are currently unavailable despite their support in lore.

[Aelcar]

Ideally lvl 30 characters would be on their way to immortality. Guess what? You arent alone here.

Again with the mocking tone, Aelcar. It's not appreciated.

Pretty sensitive for one who started it all with unbelievably condescending remarks like

As mentioned in my previous post, we're right in the area where the Eilistraeen (the good drow, you know), are most likely to be on the surface.

I am surprised...are you REALLY convinced of what you said, or just trolling?

We made sure this could be played at the time, because the staff, now like then, loves players. You can drop the anger, and maybe a "thank you" post to the staff would be nice.

Anger? What are you talking about?[/quote]

The same place where my mocking tone is.

The only immersion breaking here is to see a bunch of good Kumbaja Drow around the campfire, honestly.

You're not getting the point! I am saying that the surface view on drows is probably one with suspicion:
While Salvatore's characters aren't particularly deep, nor are his stories, they are based on the lore. Drizzt (and I hate having to bring up this argument, which nevertheless is canon [a brief history of Drizzt is mentioned in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting], because people think it's cool to hate Drizzt, but if it is the only way to get the message across...) came to the surface in 1341, if I recall correctly. By 1347 (three years prior to our current server time) he had he had been rejected - not outright attacked - by surfacers. Dove Falconhand's ranger company, which even had surface elves, even helped him. And Alustriel Silverhand accepted him into Silverymoon. He's not even Eilistraeen, though. This is just an example (or several, actually) of how surfacers could interact when seeing a drow who doesn't actually make hostile moves.[/quote]

Looks line nobody sat with them around a campfire. I'm not surprised.
BGTSCC has rules in place for Drow on the Surface. Once in a while they arent killed, I reckon. Once in a while they are permakilled. Usually, people stab them with various results.

I dont see the problem.

Point is, I don't mind if drows are viewed with huuuuge suspicion and hostility. But as it is now, there's not even a remote chance to become somewhat accepted as a drow on the surface. You can't even live there.

Here, you cant. I'm pretty sure of it. Aside from the fact it's so unlikely in the lore it's absurd, in SERVER LORE it's impossible, and regulated by rules. Again, pretty sure of it. Because people asked me a number of times back then.

I can make the same argument for the Underdark if you want: Sshamath in lore says that they welcome (but with suspicion) any races that would otherwise be traditional enemies of drow - even surface elves. The population count also says that there is 1% (120ish if going by The Underdark book) free humans living in Sshamath. Yet we're not allowed to start humans there. Deep imaskari are "humans", but they apparently count for 1% on their own apart from the other humans.

Why do you think it's strange? There are Liches in Sshamath as well, yet you cant play one. And beholders, mind flayers...If you want to be a human, stay upstairs and come visit when you have a RP reason. What's so terrible with it?

What am I saying? That humans should be allowed to start in Sshamath if they so choose, because the lore supports it. But you can't, because the rules say "no".

I don't play a drow. This isn't something I have a personal agenda for. It is because I think we should respect lore and use it as it is for RP opportunities that are currently unavailable despite their support in lore.

This has not much to do with RP opportunities. The RP opportunities are there, if several well known Eiliastreen are continuously on the Surface, and other kivvil roam Sshamath.

I have a great idea, everyone: Why dont YOU APPLY TO ENTER THE STAFF, and bring your ideas to the table, instead of telling the staff HOW TO RUN THE PLACE?

[Deathgrowl]

Here, you cant. I'm pretty sure of it. Aside from the fact it's so unlikely in the lore it's absurd, in SERVER LORE it's impossible, and regulated by rules. Again, pretty sure of it. Because people asked me a number of times back then.

I know you can't. That's why I said you can't. And I am saying I think that is a bad thing. And that I think it should be changed. But I'm not getting that message across, apparently, as we keep coming back to how things are and not discussing how things perhaps ought to be.

I have a great idea, everyone: Why dont YOU APPLY TO ENTER THE STAFF, and bring your ideas to the table, instead of telling the staff HOW TO RUN THE PLACE?

Where? Where have I even given a insinuated to tell the staff how to run the place? I am suggesting! Isn't that what such discussions are for? Suggestions? No one here actually believes they can tell the staff how to run things. Am I unclear in this? I don't understand where this is coming from.

I'm not entirely sure if QC is considered staff, but I'm there anyways. For all you know, I might even have applied to DM, so the insinuated assumption that I did not is a bit odd.

[Aelcar]

I'm not entirely sure if QC is considered staff, but I'm there anyways. For all you know, I might even have applied to DM, so the insinuated assumption that I did not is a bit odd.

You're assuming I assume you did not. Good joke there.

You see? In this area, eilistraeen surface drow are more likely than anywhere else. It is juuuuuuust outside of our border. See the Misty Forest, there? That's where our border goes. Yep. Yep yep yep yep.

THis is pretty pushy for a request. Seems like a demand to me...But as I said before, I was discussing with Kleomenes the UD DROW/SURFACERS interaction, because that's something actually IN PLACE. I dont discuss requests.

Ohh. So, this is a REQUEST to the staff to let you play DROW as a SURFACE race!!

Sorry, I thought we were discussing serious ALLOWED DROW PCs/Surface interaction.

If it's a request, it's outside my competence.

I confirm. If it's a request, it's in the wrong section. TIPS&TRICKS=guidelines for THINGS IN PLACE. We have another thread for requests, though. Dont despair.

[Passiflora]

That's what I think would happen if such things would change.


I've seen it happen, actually, once. >.>

[Storm Munin]

I could be wrong but to my humble experience most campfire and epic hunt group drow on the surface usually arent eilistraeean as is.

The limited eilistraeean drow there are on the surface right now stay as far away from the sword coast cities as possible.

Sort of like how they are supposed to by lore.


No doubt they will soon be chased into the underdark again because of the server rules, as should be according to the present server rules.

I am all for supporting permadeath strikes on any drow going near a settlement topside, but I humbly do question if the same should apply to those behaving as they should do in the wilds.

A bit puzzled at lack of rangers and druids out there btw...


/m

[Empoweredfan]

+1

[DM_Xzar]

This goes the permadeath route, as far as I remember. To... "preserve the integrity of the setting", was the sentence...? Maybe Xzar can help, since he's watching the thread.

Sounds about right.

[Storm Munin]

As for the goodness of eilistraeean, the drow in particular, I believe it would be wise to have some thoughts as to just what it means to play a good DROW.

Even if it has the humblest of dark elf origins, even the dark elves of yester were known for their ways before the entire crown war mess.

Dogma:
Be always kind, except in battle with evil. Encourage happiness everywhere. Learn and teach new songs, dances, and the flowing dance of skilled swordwork. Promote harmony between the races. Befriend strangers, shelter those without homes, and feed the hungry. Repay rudeness with kindness. Repay violence with swift violence so that those who cause it are quickly dealt with.

Chaotic Good doesnt mean Paladin.

[Servin]

As for the goodness of eilistraeean, the drow in particular, I believe it would be wise to have some thoughts as to just what it means to play a good DROW.

Now THAT is something worth reading about! That and perhaps how a life of an Eilistraeenian looks like every cycle in a city like Sshamath.

[Empoweredfan]

Would be good to know. As it is, we have to guess a lot.

[Aelcar]

Would be good to know. As it is, we have to guess a lot.

Well, outside of Server Lore, there's a lot to guess in D&D, it's pretty much a game of interpretations. Within Server Lore, this sums pretty much the view of Sshamathans on cultists of evey kind:

Sshamathan society esteems the Art above all else and is ruled by a magocracy. Aside from Lolth's clergy, the populace pays only token homage to the gods. Sshamathans are both welcoming of outsiders and xenophobic. The city's culture is steeped in fear of conquest, yet Sshamath's continued existence depends on the steady flow of Underdark traders bringing in goods for its inhabitants' artifice. This conflict enables all races to visit Sshamath, even traditional drow foes, yet ensures that such visitors are only superficially welcomed and always under great, unspoken suspicion.

In Sshamath, the Conclave is formed by the evilest Drow you can find, and they're all wizards who regard religious beliefs as mass stupidity. Until some cult grows powerful enough (in which case, it gets "switched off" as Void would put it), they largely do not care. This does not mean they dont despise the religious Drow: they just dont care enough to snap their fingers and set them on fire.

HOWEVER, the Lolthites, Vhaeraunites and simply every other Drow hate Eiliastreen. Because they're different, they're "weak", and they're unexplicable to them. Add the fact Eiliastreen have this tendency (really hard to RP, but I have seen Chalithra and Nawiel try to do this, and at least bring their skin home) to try and CONVERT Drow...

It's a hard RP. But there are a few dedicated people on the server that cultivated this niche with excellent results, despite the difficulties.

[DM Boo]

I am locking this thread for now. It might be unlocked later, but there are far too many threads floating around all of which are the continuation of the same circular argument.

Would be good to know. As it is, we have to guess a lot.

Expect some definitive answers to come.