Laws of Sshamath

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Servin
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by Servin »

mireigi wrote:
ohboy007 wrote:edit: Thanks to Storm for pointing out Artemis was a sex toy passed around the various priestesses. Can't believe I couldn't remember that part. Such torture! Having to please hot female drow!
Considering how males are often mistreated by the females during sex, I'd say it could be a rather horrifying experience. Unless of course it's one of those cases where the male truly have something to offer and the female allow him to dominate her instead, to keep him loyal.

But that's a bit off-topic.

Can anyone, someone with sufficient knowledge on the topic (DM, veteran player, etc), preferably using the two examples I provided, confirm or deny, whether or not such scenarios are: a) server legal; and b) Sshamath legal?
Given there is a limited amount of lore about sshamath, it is very difficult for me to answer that question. Sshamath-wise, the above is half-true.

First off, houses in Sshamath are all but meaningless. The traditional structure of power within the city has been overturned and instead of female dominated houses, the male dominated wizards run the show.

You can be of any house, but it matters little if you don't have any say in the School of Magic.

So how does that portray within the male-female relations?

Normally in a traditional drow city (which Sshamath is not), disrespecting the female would carry dire consequences to the male. The same rule still applies within the traditional groups, like House Sshamath, (I suspect that also in) Zau'afin, Xil'abben (excuse the spelling) and others... This is due Lolth being in the centre of their organisation and her view that females are dominant, makes the law within the house walls. The males still make for footstools if you like, their duties are limited to chores and couple-wise, they are subject to the female's whims.

But Sshamath is more than Lolthites. It consists of commoner (shebali) drow from Darkwoods (whose faith if various), and male houses (if you like). One should not expect that a wizard in power upon his return home, will curl his tail and become a servant of the angry female with a rolling pin, obeying her orders. A male who would disrespect a female in Sshamath would feel rather safe as there wouldn't be anyone to execute the same rules as in a traditional drow city. If one is a wizard, and would perish at a house argument with a female, there is enough divination magic to prove her guilt and have her suffer a penalty and anyone disobeying the sentence is welcome to become the new spell test subject for the wizards.

So to best answer your question I will need to back it up by a quote of drow of the underdark book:
Most of the trappings of love in drow society are better defined as either lust or politics. Drow seek to sate physical desires with whatever partners arouse their attentions; the culture does not, in any real way, associate sex or reproduction with love, or even necessarily with marriage. Drow seek to slake their lust with partners of lower status—so as not to imply that they have given in to a drow of higher station—and rarely with members of an enemy house or family, for fear of compromising their position. Beyond these limitations, however, anything goes.

Marriage is primarily a political or financial arrangement. Drow marry to formalize alliances, to combine family resources, or—in some cases—to cement their dominance over a weaker ally or companion. No stigma is attached to children born out of wedlock, but a child born of a marriage has a stronger claim to her parents’ wealth and power if something happens to the parents. Thus, some drow marry before procreating, to ensure that everything they have achieved remains in the family line.

Most drow marriages are monogamous, not due to moral or religious doctrine, but because few drow are willing to allow more than one other individual that close to them on a regular basis. A few drow marriages do involve multiple partners, however. These arrangements usually involve a single drow female taking numerous male partners, but other combinations are not unheard of. Although such an occurrence is rare indeed, some drow do fall in love with other drow—or, although it happens so rarely that it’s practically a myth, members of some other race. For the drow, who are accustomed to thinking only of their own good, the sudden urge to consider someone else’s well-being is a strange and frightening experience. Many drow react violently to love, seeking to destroy the object of their affections before they are further “corrupted” by the odd sensations. Those who don’t become violent usually make every effort to either impress or dominate the object of their affections, depending on their relative social standing. A drow in love with someone of a higher status seeks to increase her own authority, hoping her desired paramour will notice her and consider her worthy of an alliance, or at least of increased socialization. If the smitten drow is of higher status, she often seeks to acquire the object of her affection as a servant or slave, for even the most loving drow sees little difference between intimacy and possession. The rarest event in drow culture is when two drow share affection for one another equally. The number of loving partnerships throughout drow history can probably be counted on a single drow’s fingers, but they often become an almost unstoppable force in society. Two drow willing to combine efforts and resources to that great a degree, particularly if they have influence in different but synergistic areas of society, are potent indeed. However, because even the most loving drow can never fully trust one another—it just isn’t in their nature—these rare couples often fall apart under the weight of betrayal, or even suspicions of a betrayal that never actually occurred.
Since the higher authority lies with the males in Sshamath, the same applies within the bed chamber. It is the females, wanting power and male wizards being the supply of it.
Cake is a lie, there are only donuts
Through donuts, I gain happiness
Through happiness, I gain calories
Through calories, i gain fat
Through fat, my chains are broken
The donuts shall free me
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Nachti
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by Nachti »

When we speak about traditions. Another thing bothers me. Remember the guy Rai-guy? Hes male and a priest of lolth.
Servin
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by Servin »

A classical example of a snowflake that one ;) How would that work on the server in Sshamath?

Well, the priesthood manages admissions to the clergy, hence one to become a priestess of Lolth, still requires approval of an individual being one. Having levels in cleric class does not make one a priest or priestess of anything. Would any priestess of Lolth grant a position to a male to become a priest in a city where tradition keeps the clergy together, and any crossing the rules set out by Lolth would create cracks in the always tense groups of Lolthites? Not likely.

Finally, please realise that books and novels are mostly written about freaks of nature. Just because there's Elminster, doesn't mean you can be one. Drizzt being good of alignment, doesn't make the majority of the drow that. Rai-guy Bondalek being a priest doesn't mean you can follow in his footsteps.

We play by the rules set out in rulebooks and those say the following:
Becoming a Priestess
To become a priestess of Lolth, a female drow must meet two specific requirements. (Male drow are never accepted into the priesthood, and can at best hope to be a favored servant of a priestess.) First, she must show an aptitude for divine magic. Among the drow, every priest must be a cleric or other divine caster, such as a favored soul, even if she has only a few levels in the appropriate class.
Second, a would-be-priestess must subject herself to the first of many Tests of Lolth. Many lay drow face these trials at various points, but priestesses endure them on a relatively regular basis. Strictly speaking, these tests are between the individual and Lolth, and outside interference is forbidden.
On a practical level, however, drow priestesses are rarely accepting of new competition (unless the newcomer is somehow indebted or subservient to them, of course) and might provide new initiates with a bit of extra challenge. Poisoning and sabotage are not uncommon, and as long as the priestesses’ meddling goes undetected, Lolth seems not to object. Of course, a priestess who is caught sabotaging a newcomer, or whose efforts fail to prevent the new initiate from succeeding, often suffers her own trials and punishment at Lolth’s hands—or the hands of rival priestesses looking to tear down an experienced enemy as a younger one takes her place.
Once one has become a priestess, the hard work is far from over. Advancement requires constant effort to prove loyalty to Lolth, to exercise control over other drow, and to take advantage of the other priestesses’ weaknesses. The best route to promotion among the priesthood is to open up a position by discrediting or assassinating someone of higher rank. Combined with the requirements of surviving regular Tests of Lolth, this climate of backstabbing makes the life span of a priestess relatively short for all but the most clever and powerful of drow.
Thus, the Church of Lolth remains relatively low in membership, but those few drow priestesses who survive more than a few years are truly potent and merciless individuals.
One very important distinction exists among the drow, one that visitors often fail to notice or to comprehend. Although a priestess of Lolth must be a cleric (or other divine caster), not all divine casters are offi cially priestesses. A drow might be fully devoted to her goddess, and even have levels as a cleric, without formally joining the church. The ability to cast divine spells indicates that a drow has Lolth’s favor, but it doesn’t inherently grant her any authority beyond what she can take for herself. She does not speak for the church and cannot count on the authority of the priesthood to support her actions.


And the reason for that is simple. If we do not play along the rules that declare the majority of the race, server, area, religion etc. we will have a server full of non-sense and characters we don't know what to expect of.
Gender Roles
The supremacy of the female is deeply ingrained in drow culture. Females are seen as stronger, smarter, and more emotionally controlled than males, and—above all—holier and more devoted to Lolth. Males, on the other hand, are viewed as spiritually, intellectually, and physically inferior, useful primarily for physical and skilled labor and breeding purposes.
A male drow is seen as superior to a member of any other race, but inferior even to female drow of lower status. This attitude comes from a variety of separate but related sources. The first and most obvious is Lolth herself. The goddess has, over the course of drow mythology and history, taken multiple consorts, all of whom have been eventually discarded. Whether this is the cause of Lolth’s opinion of males or a symptom of it, Lolth believes that only females are worthwhile servants.
Now I dare anyone trying to prove Lolth wrong about her opinion ;)
Cake is a lie, there are only donuts
Through donuts, I gain happiness
Through happiness, I gain calories
Through calories, i gain fat
Through fat, my chains are broken
The donuts shall free me
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Nachti
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by Nachti »

Servin wrote: Whether this is the cause of Lolth’s opinion of males or a symptom of it, Lolth believes that only females are worthwhile servants.

Now I dare anyone trying to prove Lolth wrong about her opinion ;)
And still the man Rai-guy got his spells from Lolth. I would say its a sign of her chaotic nature.
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Blackrose
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by Blackrose »

Lolth are Caotic, the same way sometimes she "takes off" the powers from her female clergy just to see the blood show, maybe she could give power to a male cleric, for the same reason, that would be a caotic thought.
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Storm Munin
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by Storm Munin »

What do you estimate the life expectancy of said drow male priest to be?

Personally I rank it somewhere around how long an drow paladin acting out the sheet lives.

But thats just an opinion.
"Drojal zhah obdoluth dorb'd streeak, Lueth dro zhah zhaunau dorb'd ogglin."
"Existence is empty without chaos, Life is boring without enemies." So sayeth Lady Lolth, Queen of Chaos.

PC: Natalya, wandering enchantress.
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Blackrose
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by Blackrose »

Actually you are right.

A male cleric could be a simple male drow without powers, that just recieves it for a small period, 1 year to 20...?

The last time I checked in Forgotten book Lolth banned her female clerics for almost 10 years before start giving the clergy her powers back.
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godko
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by godko »

i request that the sign stating the law about summons to be changed
i had a run in with a mage who disagreed with my that my dear pet and companion was to be send out of the city even though she is my tamed pet and not a summon i took this to the cityhall to get an explanations that cause of the city is high on trading people would get upset by seeing something they would "think" to be a wild animal so i request that the sign should state that: NO PETS and summoned creatures are aloud to WALK around in the city
since i have my pet staying in my room to make sure she doesnt make any troubles

Amir Nulen

including mages familiars!
Servin
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by Servin »

godko wrote:i request that the sign stating the law about summons to be changed
i had a run in with a mage who disagreed with my that my dear pet and companion was to be send out of the city even though she is my tamed pet and not a summon i took this to the cityhall to get an explanations that cause of the city is high on trading people would get upset by seeing something they would "think" to be a wild animal so i request that the sign should state that: NO PETS and summoned creatures are aloud to WALK around in the city
since i have my pet staying in my room to make sure she doesnt make any troubles

Amir Nulen

including mages familiars!
2). All summons, animal companions, undead minions etc. must be dispelled prior to entering the city. The only exception to this is the summoning of an Imp to carry a message, your luggage or whatever (note you can summon an imp using the 5th level mage spell: Lesser Planar Binding).
This is the law. Page one, first post of this topic. You would not be allowed entry with a pet into the city without being told by the guards to leave it outside, or getting yourself arrested and your pet killed if you resisted.

Also this is a city ran by male drow wizards so it wouldn't be wise to annoy one, unless you like pain and don't mind time in a drow prison. Familiars are allowed and there is a rule for it, I just don't have the time to dig it out now. Technically they are a different bunch to those listed above.
3). No wandering around town in balor form, treant form or other overpowering idiot monster form. Same goes for no wandering around town with a summons or animal companion in tow. Why? Because the carnage and damage they can wreak on the populace is simply to great. It's bad for business and would scare people away.

Anyone breaking those 3 basic "laws" would be dealt with harshly by the city guard. Even if you think your super uber epic toon could kill all the city guard by himself, I would suggest you consider this: there is a first level spell that allows someone to send their voice to another. Do you think the sergeant of that guard group you are about to slaughter would refrain from "sending" to high placed Conclave member to warn them? And as soon as the Conclave turns it's attention to you you may as well stab yourself in the face because they will do a lot worse.
Now as far as in-game goes there is not going to be a DM around most often so I would suggest if someone who sees some dolt doing this (after a warning telling them to desist) shouts GUARDS! at the top of their lungs and take a screen shot and forward to a DM for punishment of the offender.

Easy.
Please adjust your RP accordingly to avoid meta-gaming.
Cake is a lie, there are only donuts
Through donuts, I gain happiness
Through happiness, I gain calories
Through calories, i gain fat
Through fat, my chains are broken
The donuts shall free me
godko
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by godko »

still i am looking at the billboard just inside the city where it does not say and i dont see how my pet is different from a mages familiar her and i share a long history and a good bond i simple ask for the billboard to be changed so it stands correct cause i went to the city hall and was told it is true i can let my pet run along with me in the city but my mistake was that i read the rules on the bilboard

as a traveler to the city i saw the laws on the billboard and did not think it to be nessesary to purchase a book with the citys law to get the right laws
Servin
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by Servin »

I did not understand a word you said.

Nevertheless it's a black and white case:
You run with your animal companion in the city = you break the law, meaning you can get reported to the DM's.

Don't do it! I know it's much to ask for.

I have quoted you the law, choose to ignore it at your own peril.

Also a bat familiar is a familiar, not an animal companion and not a summon. I said it before I shall say so again - Male Drow Wizards run the city and funnily enough, wizards have familiars, not animal companions.

Finally pitching tents in the city and starting camp fires can be treated as vagrancy. Commoners can do so in the Darkwoods district only.
Cake is a lie, there are only donuts
Through donuts, I gain happiness
Through happiness, I gain calories
Through calories, i gain fat
Through fat, my chains are broken
The donuts shall free me
godko
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Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 7:15 pm

Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by godko »

((and i cant figur out if you are talking in charctor or what)) civilization sure is hard to adapt to but it is not that i do not know the laws NOW it was more of a mistake when arriving do to lack of information on the billboard
Servin
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by Servin »

I can't speak that in IC because neither do you. Unless you admit to the authorities you hold a wolf in your room, which is a violation of the law and that you, a commoner, demand a wizard to do your bidding, whose word against you makes your statement look like you plead guilty and beg for a light sentence.

I would reconsider your options here. Unless you want to go IC. I didn't, only not to get you in more trouble you'd want to be in, but it's fair game if you say so. Gloves are off.

The masked wizard listens to the complaint the jaluk makes. Once he is done the wizard says:

- The insolence of this shebali jaluk is staggering. Due to pure ignorance to the laws of Sshamath and the disrespect shown here to a wizard working on behalf on the conclave, as well as setting up a beggar's tent outside the heart of our city - the marketplace, Usstan would like to recommend a penalty of fifty lashes and a dispense. The dispense in form of a permission to send this beast to nine hells using banishment spells in order to avoid any further threats to the merchants as well as the citizens, this shebali is not.

There is no doubt about the validity of the proof as the jaluk admits himself, doing those crimes, but such can be presented on request from the witnesses available at the scene.
Cake is a lie, there are only donuts
Through donuts, I gain happiness
Through happiness, I gain calories
Through calories, i gain fat
Through fat, my chains are broken
The donuts shall free me
DM Asgorath
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by DM Asgorath »

//Enough bickering. I can say with 100% certainty that animal companions inside Sshamath are NOT ALLOWED, animal companions being rather different from wizard familiars. Only exception to the rule are "animal companions" belonging to savage races (Orcs and Kobolds), in which case you are allowed to bring them around as it is legal to enslave them.

Familiars are instead allowed. I have always allowed them as the Underdark DM, as much as my predecessors did. Why so? Because Sshamath is a city of Wizards, and familiars are an important part of a wizard's "retinue". Also, Drow familiars tend to be either spiders or bats, which are both extremely common in the underdark. Only other creature allowed apart from familiars is the imp (summoned through lesser planar binding).

Any appeal to the Conclave for the revokation of this basic law is very likely to be ignored or met with derision, refusal, or a trip to the nearby school of necromancy. Arguing with drow wizards (the dominant class of sshamath) is equally capable of getting you into trouble, unless you are backed up by an extremely powerful individual.

So don't walk across the city streets with an animal companion unless you want to get into trouble.

Also, requests for the billboard inside Sshamath to be updated fall to another section of the forum. If you deem the billboard not to be exhaustive enough, there are always the forums or handbooks.
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godko
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Re: Laws of Sshamath

Unread post by godko »

//well my request was only to make the billboard more informative with a slight confusion about familiars i asked a DM where to find it and he said if i was looking for a way to correct it ingame i should try this forum though did not say what post so thought this to be the one

and as for the tent bit was only cause i was waiting for some npcs to stop hitting the high priestess of loith
charator wise i alway set up camp a good place AWAY from the city cause my ranger is not adapted and only enter when he have buisness or the day he arrived when he sleept in the tavern where i havent heard anything about travellers not being aloud to hold pets they just shouldnt walk around freely in the market (or atleast that is what i have been told which is okay since it also would be weird to ban owning a pet in a common house just as long as they dont run around scaring people who come to trade in the city)

so can i be directed to the right place cause i saw it meta gaming to read the little magic book of the laws when there is a billboard about them
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