Loss of a Soul, what does that mean?

[Daspian Dra'thir]

so my question is in regards to the character background story i'm writing for my Warlock character, in exchange for power (As all warlocks make pacts with beings) he sold his soul...

my question is, what does this in your opinion exactly do to him? would this not be possible at all, seeing as a living creature couldn't exist without a soul, or perhaps nothing happens and he is totally fine and just strides down the street humming a tune, waving to miss Applebee who happens to be baking some pies.

what i had intended was that he'd be devoid of all emotion and human personality, just goes about drifting staring off into space or "through" people, not that he'd be a mindless idiot, but he just loses complete lack of empathy and disregard for anything and emotion. would this be more inline with something?

or is this type of situation really just fluff and can be taken however the interpreter wants, and does not really matter?

[Rasael]

You keep your soul until you die. Then its forfeit to the party you sold it to. In exchange for power.
The purchaser normally tries to hurry that along. Your death. So that they get a quick return on their bargain and only have to grant litle power.

it might make your charactef depressed or fatalistic. Cynical about going to hell..

[DM Eurydice]

In DnD terms, it would also mean Raise Dead and Resurrections are close to impossible, usually it's the Gods who grant the return of a soul because they linger in the Fugue awaiting judgement.

Seeing as the Gods don't have the soul, they can't 'just' return it.


For mechanical reasons, we don't enforce permadeath on this server because you picked the warlock class, but it's a thing to have in the back of your head. Maybe your character is more afraid of death than the average Joe, because he knows he more than anyone risks never returning to the realm of the living.

[mireigi]

A high intelligence warlock on the other hand, would attempt to find a way to force the buyer of their soul to break the pact. If the buyer is a devil, it will be possible, though exceedingly difficult, to make them break the pact, such as forcing you to give up your soul prematurely. If you can manage that, the devil might let you keep your powers and your soul, as such an act of kindness is favorable to being scrutinized by on of the Lords of the Nine.

Though such is usually easier to do, and more common, when a wizard or sorcerer have bought powers through a contract that specifically detail the conditions that must be met for the contract to be fulfilled and payment delivered to the devil. But it's possible for a warlock pact as well, at least in theory

[NegInfinity]

Here is information on warlocks from wotc website.

Part 1 and Part 2.

so my question is in regards to the character background story i'm writing for my Warlock character, in exchange for power (As all warlocks make pacts with beings) he sold his soul...

This is not quite correct.

Warlock class is described in "complete arcane", and nowhere it states that the only source of power is making pact with a fiend. In fact, a fiend most likely will not make warlock on mortal's request, because it requires too much effort on their side, and it is easier to kill a mortal immediately after making such pact. The book only says that "your soul is marked with font of dark magic". Or something along those lines.

Now, following sources of warlock power are available:
1. You can make pact yourself with devil, demon or fey. It is (in my opinion) a very unlikely turn of event for a human to make such pact and live to become level 1 warlock.
2. Your ancestors made a pact with some entity (which could be really desperate). In which case it is unclear to whom your soul belongs now, because by the laws of nine hells you can only sell your own soul and you would need to do it willingly.
3. You belong to some cult worshipping a demon or devil.
4. You're planetouched and draw power from native plane, you were born with the power. Tieflings are the most likely candidates for such warlocks.

In my opinion, successfully making a pact yourself is a very unlikely turn of events. In my opinion, being born with predisposition towards warlock magic is more likely scenario, however starting to learn how to use it would probably your character's choice.

my question is, what does this in your opinion exactly do to him? would this not be possible at all, seeing as a living creature couldn't exist without a soul, or perhaps nothing happens and he is totally fine and just strides down the street humming a tune, waving to miss Applebee who happens to be baking some pies.

If you made a pact with a fiend, your soul is your own until you die. Then fiends will do bad things to it. That's all there is to it.

what i had intended was that he'd be devoid of all emotion and human personality, just goes about drifting staring off into space or "through" people, not that he'd be a mindless idiot, but he just loses complete lack of empathy and disregard for anything and emotion. would this be more inline with something?

Your soul is currently in your character's body. However, you could roleplay character's state being a result of making pact with a wrong entity. Demons, Devils and other entites are not necessarily nice. They could mess your character up in many ways.

In DnD terms, it would also mean Raise Dead and Resurrections are close to impossible, usually it's the Gods who grant the return of a soul because they linger in the Fugue awaiting judgement.

This is incorrect.

HOw resurrection interacts with mortals is described in Fiendish Codex II. Basically... if there is no chance of mortal weaseling out of contract, devils can let you go back to mortal realm. They're eternal and can wait couple of hundred for mortal to croak - he or she is not going anywhere.

Devils allow very few souls to return to the Material Plane
and live again. The only souls they release are those of com-
mitted and useful servitors whose eventual damnation is
guaranteed, or those pried from their grasp through legal
proceedings. Thus, when PC signatories of Faustian pacts
die and want to be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected, a series
of scenes set in Baator determines whether they are freed
or ferried immediately to a hellish torture chamber. In the
latter case, the character must be retired.

From page 25 of fiendish codex.

It is mentioned that mortals that made Faustian Pact do not normally return, however, warlock power does not necessarily originate from faustian pact. Turning mortal into warlock would be a big hassle for normal harvester devil and possible standard rewards for faustian pacts are rather mediocre. You can increase your ability for one point, for example, if you get really lucky. Otherwise devil would prefer to buy your soul for one goldpiece, give you goldpiece and immediately kill you.

A high intelligence warlock on the other hand, would attempt to find a way to force the buyer of their soul to break the pact. If the buyer is a devil, it will be possible, though exceedingly difficult, to make them break the pact, such as forcing you to give up your soul prematurely. If you can manage that, the devil might let you keep your powers and your soul, as such an act of kindness is favorable to being scrutinized by on of the Lords of the Nine.

And such wizard would fail. The only two reasons for a devil to release mortal's soul: if mortal was deceived or magically forced to write agreement, or if requested reward was not delievered. Devils are immortal and live for thousands of years. Chances of success are incredibly low, no matter how smart your wizard is. Also, devils are incapable of kindness. They can deceive you into thinking that they're showing kindness, of course.

(opinion) It is much more likely to mortal to release his soul from abyssal pact, however, because demons are chaotic. That is, of course, assuming said mortal won't get randomly murdered mid-negotiation on demon's whim.

[DM Eurydice]

This is incorrect.

HOw resurrection interacts with mortals is described in Fiendish Codex II. Basically... if there is no chance of mortal weaseling out of contract, devils can let you go back to mortal realm. They're eternal and can wait couple of hundred for mortal to croak - he or she is not going anywhere.

Devils allow very few souls to return to the Material Plane
and live again. The only souls they release are those of com-
mitted and useful servitors whose eventual damnation is
guaranteed, or those pried from their grasp through legal
proceedings. Thus, when PC signatories of Faustian pacts
die and want to be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected, a series
of scenes set in Baator determines whether they are freed
or ferried immediately to a hellish torture chamber. In the
latter case, the character must be retired.

Your own quote lends truth to my statement - as it says, very few souls are returned to life under such a pact. Which was what I said - Very few = Close to impossible.


And just to reiterate, this is not enforced in game on BGTSCC1. You can be resurrected by standard means, but you'd be commended for playing a character who actually fear death - especially seeing as your character has double the reason to fear it.

[mireigi]

A high intelligence warlock on the other hand, would attempt to find a way to force the buyer of their soul to break the pact. If the buyer is a devil, it will be possible, though exceedingly difficult, to make them break the pact, such as forcing you to give up your soul prematurely. If you can manage that, the devil might let you keep your powers and your soul, as such an act of kindness is favorable to being scrutinized by on of the Lords of the Nine.

And such wizard would fail. The only two reasons for a devil to release mortal's soul: if mortal was deceived or magically forced to write agreement, or if requested reward was not delievered. Devils are immortal and live for thousands of years. Chances of success are incredibly low, no matter how smart your wizard is. Also, devils are incapable of kindness. They can deceive you into thinking that they're showing kindness, of course.

(opinion) It is much more likely to mortal to release his soul from abyssal pact, however, because demons are chaotic. That is, of course, assuming said mortal won't get randomly murdered mid-negotiation on demon's whim.

It might be easier to be released from a demon, but with a devil you have a binding contract. Even the devils have to follow what is stipulated in the contract. If the devil somehow influences, forces, or otherwise attempt to fulfill the terms of the contract without an explicit desire to do so by the mortal as well, the contract is considered broken.

There's a prime example of this in Mask of the Betrayer. It's one of the few things that Obsidian actually got right.

• Devil: "Your contract will be fulfilled the moment you kill someone else. Once that is done, your soul belongs to me."
  Devil: "Until then, any wish you may desire, I will make come to pass."
  Mortal: "Ok, that's fine." *signs contract with the above wording*
  *A few months later the mortal is being chased by an angry guard*
  Mortal: "I wish the guard was gone."
  Devil: *Kills the guard*
  *A few hours later, the devil arrive to claim the mortal's soul because the contract is now fulfilled*
  Devil: "Your contract is fulfilled, you will come with me."
  Mortal: "Why? I haven't killed anyone."
  Devil: "You wished for the guard chasing you to die."
  Mortal: "No, I wished him gone, you interpreted it as wanting him dead."
  Devil: "..."
  Mortal: "You could have just teleported him out into the forest or inside a jail cell."
  Devil: "..."
  Mortal: "You forced the completion of the contract without my explicit desire to do so."
  Mortal: "Your interpretation of my desire was wrong. The contract is broken."
  Devil: "You win this round, mortal." *teleports away*

The above would require a high Intelligence score as you have to match wits against a devil and win, but it is entirely possible to do. Difficult, almost impossible, but it can be done.

[DM Narshe]

You might find this useful.
http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=30656

[NegInfinity]

• Devil: "Your contract will be fulfilled the moment you kill someone else. Once that is done, your soul belongs to me."
  Devil: "Until then, any wish you may desire, I will make come to pass."
  Mortal: "Ok, that's fine." *signs contract with the above wording*
  *A few months later the mortal is being chased by an angry guard*
  Mortal: "I wish the guard was gone."
  Devil: *Kills the guard*
  *A few hours later, the devil arrive to claim the mortal's soul because the contract is now fulfilled*
  Devil: "Your contract is fulfilled, you will come with me."
  Mortal: "Why? I haven't killed anyone."
  Devil: "You wished for the guard chasing you to die."
  Mortal: "No, I wished him gone, you interpreted it as wanting him dead."
  Devil: "..."
  Mortal: "You could have just teleported him out into the forest or inside a jail cell."
  Devil: "..."
  Mortal: "You forced the completion of the contract without my explicit desire to do so."
  Mortal: "Your interpretation of my desire was wrong. The contract is broken."
  Devil: "You win this round, mortal." *teleports away*

The above would require a high Intelligence score as you have to match wits against a devil and win, but it is entirely possible to do. Difficult, almost impossible, but it can be done.

I don't remember it happening in MotB, but instead something similar happens in one of nwn1 expansions. To be precise, in Hordes of Underdark.

I wouldn't say your example "got it right", because portrayal was rather cheap.

HotU example had better portrayal of pact insidious, but even in this case it was more or less played for laughs and not treated properly.

We're talking of immortal beings of pure lawful evil, you know? Killing a guard and trying to claim contract is something worthy of 6 int and 6 wisdom.

[mireigi]

The example isn't what happens in MotB, but it's based on that and highly simplified.

For the one implemented in NWN2 MotB, go here and search for "human wizard", then enjoy the read. It's rather long, though.

[Daspian Dra'thir]

i don't know much of fey, simply cause i have not read much material on them, the only thing in my mind is that they are whimsical trickster nature spirits, or powerful Eladrin or elven 'deity-like" creatures, there powers focusing on illusions,trickery, beauty, and the four seasons... summer, fall, winter, spring etc, and so there powers in turn are probably more themed around these i guess i don't know much about them sadly.

what i do know, is that devils whilst evil...are Lawful Evil, and they are extremely big on rules and sticking to them, and actually go out of their way to make contracts with as many mortals as they can as they want to collect souls, and they won't blatantly kill you and take your soul because they are hige on sticking to their contracts... (doesn't mean they won't find some way to deceive you though within the bounds of the contract), but i was reading something how if a devil breaks a contract, not only is the contract now void and he loses that soul from the mortal, but for breaking his contract, something devils, as being as they are and stickler for rules, is now condemned by his own devil society....there's also some kind of devil court system where a mortal can fight for his soul via democracy rofl, and can use himself or have a devil defend him (like that'd be better?)
to me it seems while Devils are Lawful Evil.....there even more strict on rules and aren't as blatantly evil as a Demon.

i suppose i sparked a little debate here unintentionally aha, this is cool, this is good cause i was really interested in knowing more about pacts, i read the Warlock Guide, but that was only about Fiends, i really was interested in Fey or (if BG allows Great Old Ones). Are there other type of entity's that warlocks make pacts with besides those 3 Fiend, Fey or GoO?

My original question was simply how would one act if he sold his soul ( would his soul already be taken, or not yet?) it seems that ya'll answered that his soul would not be taken yet, but would be upon his death, but could affect his outlook on life.... i can roll with that i suppose for RP.

[NegInfinity]

they won't blatantly kill you and take your soul because they are hige on sticking to their contracts...

They want your soul with minimum effort. So yeah, they will look for cheapest way to get it as soon as possible, unless they find a way to make you bring them more souls.

there even more strict on rules and aren't as blatantly evil as a Demon.

They're strict on the rules, however, they're the ones writing those rules. Their contracts will be written in a way that benefit devil, obviously.

Here's how it works:

Practical example:
1. You ask devil to make you rich.
2. You sign contract, which grants you a lot of gold.
3. You get the gold.
4. One minute later you're mysteriously killed by a falling furniture. Because contract did not say devil cannot kill you. As a result, devil's promise is fullfilled and your soul belong to the devil.

It is mentioned in fiendish folio II. Exact this scheme.

In the end
Devils only really care about getting more souls. They will decieve you to get yours.
Demons do not care about even that. They want to destroy and act on whims.