Feint Checks

[Seventh Sister]

I'm a little unsure at how the Feint DC is calculated.

Acording to the feat it's:
Spot skill + base attack bonus (+ non-human and low intelligence bonus') vs your Bluff check which must be Bluff skill + d20.
The Wiki says that the target also get a d20 roll on top of his spot and base attack bonus.

And anyone clarify which explanation is correct?


EDIT: And an even more important question:

Will use of Feint trigger Death Attacks? It doesn't in the testmodule.

[illithid]

The DC = spot + bab

Death attack will only trigger when the opponent is flat footed, irrespective of feinting. Feinting will allow a sneak attack to be made but the opponent must be flat footed at this point for it to become a death attack

[Seventh Sister]

The DC = spot + bab

Death attack will only trigger when the opponent is flat footed, irrespective of feinting. Feinting will allow a sneak attack to be made but the opponent must be flat footed at this point for it to become a death attack

Ok thanks.
So in effect Feinting wont trigger Death Attack as you only use that once you are in battle.
No point in Feinting from hiding.

[illithid]

Feinting from hiding will only mean that your next two flurries are sneaks, but attacking from stealth then feinting on the second flurry is, well, the only way to go

[mireigi]

It's a bit difficult to time properly in the beginning, but Feint should always be the last attack in a round, while Expose Weakness (if you have it) should be the first attack each round.

[Seventh Sister]

It's a bit difficult to time properly in the beginning, but Feint should always be the last attack in a round, while Expose Weakness (if you have it) should be the first attack each round.

Are you sure that's the most effective way?
I would think Feint should be the first to use then EW if you have some proper sneak attacks you want to land.

When you use Feint your foe should loose his dex and other dodge bonus' which at epic levels (where you also get Expose Weakness) should be anything from 4-8 perhaps even more AC and you will then lands your sneak attacks in the first (-the first attack used for Feint), second and third flurry.
This is an assumption however as i haven't tested it so correct me if that's wrong.

So a Duelist/Rogue with Feint, Expose Weakness and Flourish should fire the ones in that order in my view.
But that might get messy and I could foresee some flurry problems.

[stevebarracuda]

Feint burns up an attack. If you use it for your first strike, your toon is using up their highest AB attack. Since Feinting on the last attack is best because it does not require the Feinter's AB…get it?

Expose Weakness is still bugged, so it is an auto hit. Now, though you might do damage, there is a chance EW will fail, and thus the AC reduction won't happen.

The other issue is Feinting at Epic CR is really challenging. You'll need a dedicated Bluff skilled toon, and as best gear you can collect.

[illithid]

Are you sure that's the most effective way?

It's horses for courses at times,

I often feint first, then EW, for the very reason you mention. To ensure that I don't use up a round of combat without dealing sneak attacks. Whilst using feint on your lowest primary or offhand attack will ensure you are hitting as high an AB as you can hit for the rest of the round, it can compromise burst damage. Plus the chances of 'hitting' on EW do increase with a feinted opponent. It's not a flawless plan, and mathematically would work better in some, and worse in other cases.

[Seventh Sister]

Feint burns up an attack. If you use it for your first strike, your toon is using up their highest AB attack. Since Feinting on the last attack is best because it does not require the Feinter's AB…get it?

Expose Weakness is still bugged, so it is an auto hit. Now, though you might do damage, there is a chance EW will fail, and thus the AC reduction won't happen.

I understand your point that you will ensure that you will get a sneak attack with your highest AB if you wait and use it on the last attack.
However most battles don't last more than 1-2 rounds (if you land sneak attacks) and I would think that loosing out on sneak attacks the entire first round would cause you to deal less damage and drag the fight out a round more. (Like illithid is also saying).
But to me it's still theory as I haven't had an epic Rogue yet.

The other issue is Feinting at Epic CR is really challenging. You'll need a dedicated Bluff skilled toon, and as best gear you can collect.

Yeah that is something I'm considering a lot for my new toon.
If I can push my Bluff skill to around 60 would that ensure me regular succes or how high do you think I need it?

[Thorsson]

What you have to remember is that even with 60, which will certainly be enough most of the time, you will still struggle against Spotters. Do you have a Plan B?

Let me remind you of the Feint check:

Feint User: d20 + Total Bluff skill
Target DC: d20 + Base Attack Bonus + Total Spot skill + Other bonuses
Other bonuses:
+4 for non-humanoid
+8 if unintelligent (1 or 2 intelligence)
or Impossible if 0 intelligence.

[Seventh Sister]

What you have to remember is that even with 60, which will certainly be enough most of the time, you will still struggle against Spotters. Do you have a Plan B?

Let me remind you of the Feint check:

Feint User: d20 + Total Bluff skill
Target DC: d20 + Base Attack Bonus + Total Spot skill + Other bonuses
Other bonuses:
+4 for non-humanoid
+8 if unintelligent (1 or 2 intelligence)
or Impossible if 0 intelligence.

I completely agree which is why the build have to have a decent plain damage without the sneak attacks and Expose Weakness as an alternative to lowering the foes AC.

However it seems there are some uncertainties regarding that calculation.
I can see you have taken the one from the Wiki.
However I've been told more than once that the target don't get a d20 roll.
So that the DC check is the targets Base Attack Bonus + Spot skill + other bonuses.

Not sure if that's correct but it makes somewhat of a difference.
If the Wiki (your example) is correct I agree that even 60 wont be enough against spotters.