Thaumaturge issues

[Rask]

I have this class (all 5 levels ) on my sorcerer. It's fun as an RP element but....

It's reaaaaallllllyyyy weak as a class. I know you guys beefed up the summons a little bit a while back but holy damn...the planar binding spell summons are VERY weak, and they are only ones that work for Planar Cohort (the whole point of the class.). I have been using a combo of scrolls and spells to test all of them out and it's very underpowered. Even low level monsters can easily destroy even the higher level Planar summons with relative ease. Main'y I find it is their HP and AC that is sorely lacking. Even with buffs these summons die very fast and very easily. The +2/+2 con/str buff helps but that really only equals out to a +1 in AB and damage and a +10 or so in HP tops. It barely makes a difference. Especially with summons like the Sylph, where it dies basically immediately since it is only level 4 (despite being a 6th level summon spell?) any use these summons are supposed to have against spawns is completely negated. I don't think you guys went far enough with the buffs to the summons.

In fact make the buffs Thaumaturge specific even. You have to sacrifice 2 feats out of a very limited selection of feats, to make it so your Planar summons last forever, but they are SO WEAK, that there is no point in even bothering to summon them outside of a few select RP moments. Unless I am missing out on some higher level epic planar spell that isn't listed? I know NWN2 doesn't have Planar Ally as far as I know, just Planar Binding (Which is garbage.)

I think ontop of the str and con, they should recieve a +4 bonus to natural AC with Thaumaturge (minimum +4) as all of the summons have well below 20 AC on their own and all the planar's have between 18-80 HP tops so maybe +4 con instead of +2 as wel. Otherwise by the time you're using them they are already so feeble and killable they border on totally worthless. They just have no suitability against the mobs you encounter with them, they can sometimes hit alright, but they can't survive at all. Some of the summons are just worthless even with an AC buff (Sylph, Mephits, Succubus, Anything from Lesser Planar, Shadow Mastif.) and these summons should possibly even level up with you (unless this is in, and i haven't noticed.). Also making regular summon monster work with Thaumaturge planar cohort would go a long way to making them a more viable option as well. So far all they are is fun to RP, their abilities are useless.

[Rask]

To update on this, the summoning buffs don't even work with lesser planar binding at all....so it's glitched as well. Both Planar Cohort and the Con/Str buff do not function at all with this spell.

Also the celestial wolf is terrible, its level 5 and has no AC or AB to work with at all. It's a worthless summon/spell and doesn't seem to have been updated like the other summons. It's a lower level than summon monster IV, which is 2 spell levels below it...?? It also appears unnamed when you summon it, it just says "Uninjured" so i think this spell is broken entirely.

[stevebarracuda]

Are you additionally casting buffs upon the summons? Cat's, Bull's, Barkskin, Greater Heroism? Those spells should stack with the Augmented Summons feat. I had a Thaumaturge for a while, and though kinda boring to watch summons slooooowly kill mobs for the puny wizard, I do not remember the summons dying off quick at all.

Can you post screenshots of the summons/planar bound creatures just after you summon them fresh, then another set after your Mage buffs them up with the Full Buff Package?

[Rask]

Are you additionally casting buffs upon the summons? Cat's, Bull's, Barkskin, Greater Heroism? Those spells should stack with the Augmented Summons feat. I had a Thaumaturge for a while, and though kinda boring to watch summons slooooowly kill mobs for the puny wizard, I do not remember the summons dying off quick at all.

Can you post screenshots of the summons/planar bound creatures just after you summon them fresh, then another set after your Mage buffs them up with the Full Buff Package?

My mage is not high enough level to cast them all without scrolls yet, i had bought the scrolls and tested some, and I have the spells all the way up to lesser planar binding only to discover lesser planar binding doesn't work with any of the feats (even though it's supposed to.) and as far as i've seen the buffs (bulls str and bears endurance) in fact do not stack with the augmented summoning, but replace the buff of +2 with +4, making the feats all the more useless.

[Aelcar]

Bear's and Bull's are two spared spells when you have Augmented Summoning.

However, Greater Heroism, GMW, IMA, Spiderskin, Circle vs Evil, Keen Edge, Haste and whatnot...those work. On the Horned Devil as well...

[Rask]

Bear's and Bull's are two spared spells when you have Augmented Summoning.

However, Greater Heroism, GMW, IMA, Spiderskin, Circle vs Evil, Keen Edge, Haste and whatnot...those work. On the Horned Devil as well...

I have learned today that the buffs bulls str and bears endurance in fact just do not apply at all to the summons. They don't stack OR replace the augment buffs. They simply have no effect at all and are completely wasted on any summon you cast as a thaumaturge. I doubt this is intentional.

[Hawke]

I have to check on my Thaumaturge, but I am pretty sure you get +4 Str and +4 Con with Augement Summoning. The fact that Bulls and Bears doesn't work is moot. It would be nice if it did... but it is listed as Enhancement, the same as the spells.

Basically you are adding Bulls and Bears automatically to your summons at the price of that feat Augment Summoning.

Is it worth a feat? Is it worth Thaumaturge, meh, I dunno. Would be better off if it stacked with bulls and bears, or if it added Cats to it...

[Rask]

I have to check on my Thaumaturge, but I am pretty sure you get +4 Str and +4 Con with Augement Summoning. The fact that Bulls and Bears doesn't work is moot. It would be nice if it did... but it is listed as Enhancement, the same as the spells.

Basically you are adding Bulls and Bears automatically to your summons at the price of that feat Augment Summoning.

Is it worth a feat? Is it worth Thaumaturge, meh, I dunno. Would be better off if it stacked with bulls and bears, or if it added Cats to it...

Yes it seems you are correct, it simply doesn't stack because the +4/+4 is already considered a magical buff so that is why the two buffs do not stack. Too bad, kinda makes that one feat a little useless. I guess it's 2 spells saved, but if you're a sorcerer it really doesn't matter.

[Hawke]

Yeah it is a magical buff, but you have to understand it is an Enhancement. Enhancements do not stack in NWN2.

Just like if you wore boots with Con +4, bears will not work on you.

Like what was said above, you have space in your level 2 spells for other stuff like ghostly visage or ice darts or whatever.

[Aelcar]

I have to check on my Thaumaturge, but I am pretty sure you get +4 Str and +4 Con with Augement Summoning. The fact that Bulls and Bears doesn't work is moot. It would be nice if it did... but it is listed as Enhancement, the same as the spells.

Basically you are adding Bulls and Bears automatically to your summons at the price of that feat Augment Summoning.

Is it worth a feat? Is it worth Thaumaturge, meh, I dunno. Would be better off if it stacked with bulls and bears, or if it added Cats to it...

Yes it seems you are correct, it simply doesn't stack because the +4/+4 is already considered a magical buff so that is why the two buffs do not stack. Too bad, kinda makes that one feat a little useless. I guess it's 2 spells saved, but if you're a sorcerer it really doesn't matter.

A sorcerer does not pick Bull's and Bear's. That's a terrible spell choice.

[Rask]

I have to check on my Thaumaturge, but I am pretty sure you get +4 Str and +4 Con with Augement Summoning. The fact that Bulls and Bears doesn't work is moot. It would be nice if it did... but it is listed as Enhancement, the same as the spells.

Basically you are adding Bulls and Bears automatically to your summons at the price of that feat Augment Summoning.

Is it worth a feat? Is it worth Thaumaturge, meh, I dunno. Would be better off if it stacked with bulls and bears, or if it added Cats to it...

Yes it seems you are correct, it simply doesn't stack because the +4/+4 is already considered a magical buff so that is why the two buffs do not stack. Too bad, kinda makes that one feat a little useless. I guess it's 2 spells saved, but if you're a sorcerer it really doesn't matter.

A sorcerer does not pick Bull's and Bear's. That's a terrible spell choice.

Why? It's great for party buffs. I also chose them assuming they would stack with the Thaum enhancements, but they don't.

[NegInfinity]

A sorcerer does not pick Bull's and Bear's. That's a terrible spell choice.

Why? It's great for party buffs. I also chose them assuming they would stack with the Thaum enhancements, but they don't.

They are not party buffs, because they afffect single target. It is a spell of a choice for eldritch knight, cleric, favored soul or shifter druid. But not for sorcerer.

Also the bonus is not good. Bull's strength will *maybe* (depending on build) grant you +2 to hit and damage and increase carrying capacity. However, people that need strength often already have +str items, so it will be even less than that.

Greater Heroism, on other hand, will grant you +4 to attack roll and saves. Duration is the same. If you want more damage, then it can be increased with Greater Magic Weapon. If you don't have greater heroism, then normal heroism is superior to bull's strength because it has longer duration, provides bonus to saves (in addition to bonus to attacK) and provides same +2 to attack which, by the way, stack with bonus people get from their items.

It is not a very good spell. Its main use is increasing carrying capacity, and it is somewhat useful at very low levels (below 10), if you're, say, playing wanna be gish with mundane weapon.

[Passiflora]

Pretty sure the buffs stack, Rask, but don't show up. I remember Rasael saying that somewhere.


And Aelcar, Bulls and bears are awesome for a sorc. Especially for a summoner!

It's just fun to do nothing and watch your friends do all the work... for us, lazy bums.

[Aelcar]

Why? It's great for party buffs. I also chose them assuming they would stack with the Thaum enhancements, but they don't.

This kind of stuff is more a matter for Tips&Tricks section, but let's say that Sorcerers tend to shy away from spells. Aside from what Neg said (which is true), I might add that as a Sorc you'd rather have Invisibility (too comfortable to pass up, and the wand's duration is a piece of dump), Mirror Images (indispensable), Blindsight (you really don't want to spend a 5th Circle slot for True Seeing, honestly) and Ice Darts (because it's one of the spells that scale best in the game, most of all with the metamagic-on-the-fly abilities of a Sorc) among others. Taking Bull's and Bear's is a horrid move.

Even if they were stacking, I would never pick them. The bonuses are inane.

[Rasael]

They should stack with the feat Augment Summon. Its how they were designed to work. Augment summon doesn't give an ability bonus effect anymore. It increases the summon's actual ability scores. Like in the pictures Karond put up. Don't look for an icon denoting ability score effect increases, its supposed to be unrelated to that.

Subject: Wizards Summoners

I'd like to see the creatures from planar binding receive the buff from the feat as well.

I mentioned already that I get +4/+4 STR and CON on the planar binding spells. I've no idea why people get different results. Just watch this:

Lesser Binding without Thaumaturge:

Hidden: show

Lesser Binding with Thaumaturge:

Hidden: show

Gate without Thaumaturge:

Hidden: show

Gate with Thaumaturge:

Hidden: show

If you aren't getting summons with increased ability scores like in the pictures Karond posted then there's a bug somewhere. This isn't clear to me from the posts so far because the discussion is about stacking buffs. Augment Summon (the feat) isn't supposed to be a 'buff' kind of effect at all.

If you are correctly getting the summons like Karond describes then buffing spells will stack will the Augment Summon feat. Previously they did not, either your buff spell or augment summon was overridden. This used to make the feat practically worthless because everyone just used scrolls or buff spells.

---

Balance wise I don't have any plans to buff the Thaumaturge class. The Augment summon feat is supposed to be very decent now, you get a free summon with your contingency, you gain extended summons which also effects the gate series, and you gain a second summon slot for the Planar creature series (the cohort).

I do have a plan to return to the Cohort at some point. In order to add more creatures / selection, and / or to make them scale a bit with casterlevel. Right now some of the versions are fairly weak and don't scale too well to epic levels. But prior to level 24ish content and fully buffed the high level cohorts are pretty decent right now. Particularly if you don't use them solo but combine them with a regular summon. That's what they were meant for.