Where is everyone?

[Grimnail]

I'm sure the numbers will rise when some of the things Ras and QC have been working get released...

Quoted for truth.

Exciting times ahead!

So you both are saying that the reason to play on Baldur's Gate is because of the mechanics and options to building?

What about stories? Character development? Actions that enact world changing repercussions? Role-play support?!?

If the highest form of positive experience cannot be had on BG with a straight vanilla Fighter, Wizard, Cleric or Rogue as a base line...then there is a fundamental problem either in the Server itself, or why people play on this Server.

[Deathgrowl]

I'm sure the numbers will rise when some of the things Ras and QC have been working get released...

Quoted for truth.

Exciting times ahead!

So you both are saying that the reason to play on Baldur's Gate is because of the mechanics and options to building?

What about stories? Character development? Actions that enact world changing repercussions? Role-play support?!?

If the highest form of positive experience cannot be had on BG with a straight vanilla Fighter, Wizard, Cleric or Rogue as a base line...then there is a fundamental problem either in the Server itself, or why people play on this Server.

Uh. No. No one said that. But as you very well know, this server caters to both us who enjoy the deep, immersive roleplay and storytelling as well as those who enjoy the mechanical aspects of the game. I am personally fond of both, actually.

This is a quite combat oriented game, after all.

And these new PRCs, for instance, aren't exactly powerful, as we QC have done some job of balancing them, but they do add RP flavour. And you yourself might not acknowledge mechanics being able to add RP flavour (techsmith of gond, for instance), and that is fine, but some people think differently.

[Grimnail]

Don't get me wrong: having "flavor" and choice to building a character is a cool thing.

But on a RP server, it shouldn't be the the main reason to be playing on BG, or why the numbers of players will go up.

What any player can accomplish in an RP context should be the metric. RPing the mechanical flavor of a character sheet in a vacuum of storyline and possibility, doesn't really impress. One can easily do that in JEGs.

I would hope that we both could agree there is a fundamental difference between RPing a Techsmith of Gond, and RPing a Techsmith of Gond in a thriving Guild/Temple of Gond, where being a Techsmith has an effect, place and raison d'etre.

[Storm Munin]

I believe they call it summer season.

[DM Dialectic]

You beat me to it.... I was just about to make a poll to try and gauge why players have been so scarce, but I suppose this will do

In a nutshell? I would surmise the low population to be a result of a combination of things: Summer time, numerous long-time players either playing on alts, retiring their characters, or going absent in general, player disinterest(possibly due to hardly ever seeing RP buddies online), player disgruntlement(I will not be specific as to why I say this), and interest in other servers(I believe 3 other servers were hovering around 40 players last night while BG was at 18-20). Then again, what do I know?

Hmm, that's a big nutshell.

This is my personal opinion, not a DM team opinion.

As Snarfy mentioned, there are a slew of possible reasons. One I will emphasize though is that general OOC toxicity on the forums and in other OOC communication medium related to our server the past few months has taken its toll, unfortunately, on some longstanding players and DMs. It can be difficult for some to wish to continue to participate in our community at no fault of their own when OOC negativity directed at them becomes enough to no longer make it fun to play here.

It is great and absolutely necessary to hear constructive feedback and criticism of fellow players' RP, the server, the DM team, etc., but toxic and negative, and even hostile, OOC feedback is never a positive thing to foster sustainable and constructive participation in a community like ours. We all need to keep this in mind going forward and do better as I personally know of a slew of players (and DMs) that have quit or are playing less due to negativity and toxicity directed at them specifically or generally (instead of constructive feedback and criticism or even compliments) that is just burning out their enjoyment on the server.

I am not singling anyone out here, but please everyone, try to be more positive and constructive in feedback and criticism to your peers in our community. It is a crucial recipe to making this a continually fun and awesome RPing environment for our niche RP community.

I look forward to seeing you all IC and us doing better on staying more OOC positive and constructive in our feedback to each other.

[NegInfinity]

I'm sure the numbers will rise when some of the things Ras and QC have been working get released...

Quoted for truth.

Exciting times ahead!

So you both are saying that the reason to play on Baldur's Gate is because of the mechanics and options to building?

What about stories? Character development? Actions that enact world changing repercussions? Role-play support?!?

The reason to play on bgtscc is because there aren't many alternatives. High population bring more roleplaying opportunities.

New classes result in new characters.

Server content does not match monster manuals, which is why people powerbuild and rcr characters all the time.

Having said that selection of classes is quite rich and opens up many ways to express your character mechanically via its build.

If the highest form of positive experience cannot be had on BG with a straight vanilla Fighter, Wizard, Cleric or Rogue as a base line...

According to my experience, pure Wizard and pure Cleric (being spellcasters) will probably end up very powerful, not sure about pure Rogue (no HiPS will require player to be VERY creative, because there is very small number of areas where corner-sneaking is viable), and pure fighter most likely will be royally screwed without a party after level 18 or so.

You can have inefficient roleplaying build, but you're very likely to run into someone who'll casually mop floor with you in their sleep regardless of your and their levels. Obviously, your character might not take that very well.

I am not singling anyone out here, but please everyone, try to be more positive and constructive in feedback and criticism to your peers in our community. It is a crucial recipe to making this a continually fun and awesome RPing environment for our niche RP community.

That's great advice.

[Snarfy]

... please everyone, try to be more positive and constructive in feedback and criticism to your peers in our community. It is a crucial recipe to making this a continually fun and awesome RPing environment for our niche RP community.

+1000.

Player civility and attitude needs a small(and by that I mean huge) overhaul. It really shouldn't be that hard to be decent to your fellow players and the DM's.

And if affording your fellow players(aka: fellow human beings) a modicum of kindness or respect is too much to ask, well...

[grymhild]

You can have inefficient roleplaying build, but you're very likely to run into someone who'll casually mop floor with you in their sleep regardless of your and their levels. Obviously, your character might not take that very well.

yep,

it's the Red Queens Dilemma and a race to the lowest common denominator... pwning noobz for lolz and mobz for phat loot...

and _that_ is one major turn off for me, and why I dont think a server can be both a min-max epic munckin powerbuild low to no consequence grinding server -and- be an immersive lore based consequence driven storytelling rp server.

the server here tries to strike a balance, but I just don't think it can be done.

I know some people might dismiss this as "negative" - but I'm not the only one who feels this way.

we -do- have some wonderful staff and amazing rpers here, but... maybe -some- of the "negativity" is an expression of valid experiences.

sometimes I think frustration gets bottled up because of a "don't rock the boat" environment, so people feel pressured to keep their thoughts to themselves unless it's positive.

then ...some people end up so frustrated that they explode. :/

I don't know how to fix things and make everyone happy I wish I did... and I really wonder if anyone does :/

[Lockonnow]

well it is summer now

[Layla0340]

still likes BG

I help manage a summer resort, and I found I could not do both this year.

I also need a break to chill out for a while. I became very bitter toward nearly half the server population toward the end.

I am sure I will be back in a few months.

[TheKai]

You beat me to it.... I was just about to make a poll to try and gauge why players have been so scarce, but I suppose this will do

In a nutshell? I would surmise the low population to be a result of a combination of things: Summer time, numerous long-time players either playing on alts, retiring their characters, or going absent in general, player disinterest(possibly due to hardly ever seeing RP buddies online), player disgruntlement(I will not be specific as to why I say this), and interest in other servers(I believe 3 other servers were hovering around 40 players last night while BG was at 18-20). Then again, what do I know?

Hmm, that's a big nutshell.

This is my personal opinion, not a DM team opinion.

As Snarfy mentioned, there are a slew of possible reasons. One I will emphasize though is that general OOC toxicity on the forums and in other OOC communication medium related to our server the past few months has taken its toll, unfortunately, on some longstanding players and DMs. It can be difficult for some to wish to continue to participate in our community at no fault of their own when OOC negativity directed at them becomes enough to no longer make it fun to play here.

It is great and absolutely necessary to hear constructive feedback and criticism of fellow players' RP, the server, the DM team, etc., but toxic and negative, and even hostile, OOC feedback is never a positive thing to foster sustainable and constructive participation in a community like ours. We all need to keep this in mind going forward and do better as I personally know of a slew of players (and DMs) that have quit or are playing less due to negativity and toxicity directed at them specifically or generally (instead of constructive feedback and criticism or even compliments) that is just burning out their enjoyment on the server.

I am not singling anyone out here, but please everyone, try to be more positive and constructive in feedback and criticism to your peers in our community. It is a crucial recipe to making this a continually fun and awesome RPing environment for our niche RP community.

I look forward to seeing you all IC and us doing better on staying more OOC positive and constructive in our feedback to each other.

Well said! ESPECIALLY on the forums.

[NeOmega]

Oh, this server could be a grinder and rp paradise.

Ive thrown out plenty of ideas how, and have constantly stressed the philosophy needed. That is randomness, novelty, and player initiated quests based upon their own needs. Not giving out quests for the RP, but giving out quests to lower levels because they are working on something. They need something, and i mean mechanically. And I don't just mean, "they need it because they want the awesome weapon" I mean, they need it to make the weapon to destroy the bone dragon, and make it's lair the new catacombs for their palemaster, soon to be liche NPC enemy.

Everybody loves to talk about DM's doing this and that, but really, this server always has been about mechanics, with a veneer of RP. I've seen dozens of guilds rise and fall. There are about 10 players that live here and are hard core RPers, everyone else is just playing for fun. Yes, that means for the grind, for the loots, for the power.

Here are some problems:

1) 75 players max, combined with low player base
This means there will never really be sustainable guilds, because a real, constant presence is impossible.

2) no crafting
This means no real player driven quests. Quests are mechanical or DM driven. It is pretty much pointless to have player generated quests. I've done some, Ive seen some attempts. But asking lowbies to bring you healing moss from the ruins for the lulz is quite empty. Furthermore, there is no real incentive to find low toons and have them quest for you. The best way to get anything is just to go out, and grind some chests.

3)Stagnant quests
The mechanical quests are the same. They could be cookie cutter to make, but still dynamic.

4) lack of randomness and surprises.

5) the insistence on keeping fun out. Be it duels or the sharp divide between the underdark and the surface. I see no reason why there has to be any "RP" reason to adventure to either side. After all, these are all adventurers. The underdark and the surface need to be more connected. "Lore" be damned. In quite a few Baldur's Gate titles, you went to the underdark before level 30. I just don't see why the divide has to be so damn imposing.

6) Boring economy
part of this is no crafting, part of it is no player merchants*, part of it is a limited NPC merchants, instead of say, rotating merchants and seasonal merchants, part of it is everybody is a killer, and nobody is really a producer. I know there can be a merchant system BEYOND the auction, where players can sell things without actually having to tend a booth. Hell, I imagine a day when merchants like only sell minor potions. Sorcerous sundries sells low level scrolls at best, and the player stores sell these things, crafted by players. Getting a +1 greatsword would not mean just going to Maltz and buying it. Maltz wouldn't have it.

*and I mean, being a merchant is quite pointless and not profitable. You can take it from me. You wanna make gold? Grind. Buying and selling takes way more time, and makes way, way, WAY less.

7) No real incentives.
No player houses or halls? No player stores? No retirement, no characters immortalized as NPC's. No leaders with special powers and quest giving abilities? Nothing. It's sitting around talking about Gods and Dukes. Bleh. I'll go kill some stuff, alone. Please spare me another talk about how great your god is, or what you wanna be when you grow up.



I looked at the features for the new server. It is obvious whoever made it used to play here, and posted ideas in the forum that were shot down, so they just took the ideas and started a new PW.

I played on a server with about 5 people on it, I think, once, there were a dozen, but most of the time, I was the only one. I had to find my own way to fun. I've found it here too, but I really grimace at all the lost potential of this server.

I've put out dozens ideas about how to make the server more dynamic, more random, and more fun. They are constantly shot down by people talking about how DM's should be doing everything, and talks of "exploits" as if power builds aren't exploit enough. I am not surprised if these people are the DM's buddies, and worse, DM's annoying squeaky wheels.

For example, recently a DM offered to give players the custom models of their choice, as long as they did the work to make them. Everybody was like, "Oh, DM, you're so cool!" and, yes, that was cool, But it would have been a hell of a lot COOLER if people had to EARN custom armor looks. It would be a hell of a lot cooler if most looks were mundane, and getting the super black shiny bad-ass armor took crafting or components or even gold (but gold is so cliche) to make and have. then people would look and, and go, whoa, that guy did something, all I got is this flat gray full plate.

And what if you don't want to bother with DM's? What if you want to do things and adventures on the fly? I'll tell you this: I really hate sitting around and talking. I like adventuring, but I don't like it if it feels pointless, ie "hunting lizards, mind if I join?"... ...pointless. I want there to be constant reasons to be doing things. Constant reasons for existence! Not just XP and levelling, and not just when you are under the eye of a DM.
I think the server would work and be FAR MORE fun if mechanics determined the way things went, not "lore".

I've bottled up dozens of ideas, because frankly, I've heard the chorus here one too many times. I'm half tempted to fire up blender, and go over to the other server, and do artwork for coding. The only thing I don't like is they start at level 8, because I actually enjoy getting to level 8 the best.

TL:DR
The new server is obviously dragging players away.

[Deathgrowl]

1) 75 players max, combined with low player base
This means there will never really be sustainable guilds, because a real, constant presence is impossible.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Should the max be higher? It will be stressful for the server. And when we used to get full, there were only ever really like two or three players who didn't get on and that wasn't often. I'm not sure we'd ever need to increase it beyond 80, for instance.

2) no crafting
This means no real player driven quests. Quests are mechanical or DM driven. It is pretty much pointless to have player generated quests. I've done some, Ive seen some attempts. But asking for lowbies to bring you healing moss from the ruins for the lols is quite empty

How would crafting make player driven quests more viable? Players should still not be able to give XP, and with the current economy, not many people really care about gold.

As a former guild leader of Candlekeep, I can tell you player driven quests/expeditions/missions are completely possible and a lot of fun. You don't need crafting for it.

3)Stagnant quests
The mechanical quests are the same

No argument there. In fact, I would argue to abolish the current quests entirely. They're just there to give people almost free XP once a week. People don't even consider them IC and the DMs won't enforce an IC approach. So you'll get paladins helping imps. Which is ridiculous.

Some of us have suggested to leave the current quests in. But increase the XP reward and make them only one-time quests. Not repeatable.

4)lack of randomness

I have no idea what this means. There are randomly spawning ambushes a few places on the server. Several DMs run random events now and then. We have a random loot generator.

I think there's quite a lot of randomness going on.

5) the insistence on keeping fun out. Be it duels or the sharp divide between the underdark and the surface. I see no reason why there has to be any "RP" reason to adventure to either side. After all, these are all adventurers. The underdark and the surface need to be more connected. "Lore" be damned. In quite a few Baldur's Gate titles, you went to the underdark before level 30. I just don't see why the divide has to be so damn imposing.

Duels? Who is prohibiting duels? Or is it that you can't do it in guarded areas? Because we've had quite a lot of duel oriented tournaments recently, so this makes no sense to me. In fact, last week, we had a mage fair where mage duels were organized.

I will never agree to a statment such as "lore be damned". We have a setting. We should respect it.

However, I agree that the current divide is far too harsh. I don't want to see people grinding on the other side, but adventuring would be fine. But I think the historical reason for the divide is PvP griefing. But that can be argued away by being a different issue than an UD/surface issue. It's a PvP griefing issue. PvP griefers will be PvP griefers regardless.

6) Boring economy
part of this is no crafting, part of it is no merchants, part of it is a limited NPC merchants, instead of say, rotating merchants and seasonal merchants. I know there can be a merchant system BEYOND the auction, where players can sell things without actually having to tend a booth.

Broken economy more like. Not sure how to fix it, though.

I like the idea of seasonal merchants. Maybe that's something to consider for the devs when we start getting more regular updates again.

7) No real incentives.
No player houses or halls? No player stores? No retirement, no characters immortalized as NPC's. No leaders with special powers and quest giving abilities? Nothing. It's sitting around talking about Gods and Dukes. Bleh. I'll go kill some stuff, alone. Please spare me another talk about how great your god is, or what you wanna be when you grow up.

Player houses and halls, well we have guild halls. If you're going to add a house for every player on the server, we'd have several hundred zones just for that by now.

No player stores? Storage, I assume you mean? I don't know, but I imagine it has to do with database issues? Like bags of holding?

No retirements? Really?
Valshar - Former main character of Aelcar. Now an NPC questgiver in the underdark.
Dimitri - Former main of InfernalDave, red wizard. I think he was given a lich retirement?
More recently: Cheryl Mae Castillo and Llewelyn Cadwaldr, ennobled and NPCd I think?

No leaders with special powers and quest giving abilities? Yes, well. Imagine the outrage from the favouritism screamers if the DMs started giving that stuff. Not bloody likely.

[NeOmega]

I'm not really sure what you're saying here. Should the max be higher? It will be stressful for the server. And when we used to get full, there were only ever really like two or three players who didn't get on and that wasn't often. I'm not sure we'd ever need to increase it beyond 80, for instance.

No, the max should not be higher. I mean it would be great if one day there was enough people who wanted to do all this for it to grow bigger, but I am just laying the groundwork. Expectations have to be real.

How would crafting make player driven quests more viable? Players should still not be able to give XP,

They can give gold and items now. Step out of the paradigm. Imagine a server where XP isn't everything. Imagine a server where getting and giving XP gets you better than a higher BAB and another spell slot. A server where becoming the ultimate killer is not the end all, be all, like it is now.

and with the current economy, not many people really care about gold.

Yeah, I've heard it, don't believe it.

As a former guild leader of Candlekeep, I can tell you player driven quests/expeditions/missions are completely possible and a lot of fun. You don't need crafting for it.

Yes, with help from DM's, I am sure they can be fun. But not everybody, especially myself, ever talk to DM's.

3)Stagnant quests
The mechanical quests are the same

I'll start a thread about yet another possible quest approach. There are so many ways to do them.

I have no idea what this means. There are randomly spawning ambushes a few places on the server. Several DMs run random events now and then. We have a random loot generator.

I think there's quite a lot of randomness going on.

Not really. And I mean mechanical randomness, not DM run randomness.

Duels? Who is prohibiting duels? Or is it that you can't do it in guarded areas? Because we've had quite a lot of duel oriented tournaments recently, so this makes no sense to me. In fact, last week, we had a mage fair where mage duels were organized.

And that was good, but once again, these things were DM initiated. Why aren't they player initiated? Where is the Colosseum? There was one in the other server I played. And you could watch other players battle monsters in it. How about a Colosseum where XP and gold is rewarded to the winners of duels? And a summoning colloseum as well?

I will never agree to a statment such as "lore be damned". We have a setting. We should respect it.

And we all know how the story ends, so somehow, everything has to converge on that story. Why? And really, do 75 adventurers really have the power to change the world and history? Screw the grand schemes. Let people slip to and from the underdark. I am sure it was not impossible. In fact, as I said, in the BG games, I think you go to the underdark in every one.

Broken economy more like. Not sure how to fix it, though.

I like the idea of seasonal merchants. Maybe that's something to consider for the devs when we start getting more regular updates again.

I mean like, why even have NPC merchants selling goods? What do they bring to RP? Where is this never ending plethora of wyvern pads and armors coming from? How can Maltz have so many +1 weapons?

See, scarcity creates demand. When everything is provided, it makes the game LESS fun, not more.* Part of a world where players were driven to quest would be a world where there was a form of predictability, but not solid predictability.

Example: your level 5 paladin wants a +2 greatsword.
Now, let's pretend, that monsters drop the weapons they have. They drop them like undead drop undead remains, (which I think have a decay mechanism, so as not to lag the server, same with wolf hides). Goblin chieftans will drop a greatsword, 1 out of ten will drop a +1, and 1 out of 100 will drop a +2.

Now your paladin has a quest. How does he round up some others to help him get this sword?

Oh, its in a store, never mind, he'll just go buy it.

Or, he can wait around the stores until someone drops one off or puts it up for auction.

7) No real incentives.
No player houses or halls? No player stores? No retirement, no characters immortalized as NPC's. No leaders with special powers and quest giving abilities? Nothing. It's sitting around talking about Gods and Dukes. Bleh. I'll go kill some stuff, alone. Please spare me another talk about how great your god is, or what you wanna be when you grow up.

Player houses and halls, well we have guild halls. If you're going to add a house for every player on the server, we'd have several hundred zones just for that by now.

Actually, you would only need the number of max players in a server. 75. When a player leaves, his house, and its stuff is stored on the server, but not on the map. When he returns, he is assigned on of the 75 houses, whether he even owns it or not.

With a little bit more questing, perhaps questing based on something like finding a bartender, or shop keep to run his store, his goods could be on display, with the prices he wants, while he is out playing elsewhere. I suppose if all 75 players all were visiting a store at the same time, it could be problematic and laggy... ...but nothing will ever come close.

No player stores? Storage, I assume you mean? I don't know, but I imagine it has to do with database issues? Like bags of holding?

No retirements? Really?
Valshar - Former main character of Aelcar. Now an NPC questgiver in the underdark.
Dimitri - Former main of InfernalDave, red wizard. I think he was given a lich retirement?
More recently: Cheryl Mae Castillo and Llewelyn Cadwaldr, ennobled and NPCd I think?

three? really? Imagine a world, where EVERYONE and EVERYTHING is player created. ALL items in the Temple of Gond were made by questing and crafting. You would be playing in a truly player driven world.

No leaders with special powers and quest giving abilities? Yes, well. Imagine the outrage from the favouritism screamers if the DMs started giving that stuff. Not bloody likely.

It could be something like a player can control their character when playing, but have it be an NPC when not playing. When not playing, it can't play favorites, it will be scripted.

[Xanfyrst]

I pretty much quit. For various reasons, including the server not being where it should be (according to me), certain individuals lying to me and others, nothing I've done on the server had any ever-lasting affect on the world itself in spite of trying and trying, lots of old RP buddies and friends gone, exhaustion, feeling unappreciated by the server as a whole, etc.

Will I return? As it stands now, no. Maybe I will at later date when some of the above things either don't bother me anymore or has been remedied. (I don't play NwN2 at all, btw)

I am however going back to my Online RP roots. Not just to the same kind of RP, but the exact same RPG that I "played" back then. (it's not an MMO or multiplayer game, but similar to old school PnP) Maybe I'll regain my love for writing again, which was ruined by a DM on this server a few years ago.

Sorry if this sounds bitter, but I know certain people have been asking people where I went... and this thread kinda gave me an opportunity to answer that question to everyone who was wondering (or gave a f**k about me).

-Xan