Order of the Bow Initiate

[Rasael]

Changes are testable in the latest BGTSCC Jegs module, dating August 2nd. Version E 6.76 and onward.

[dzidek1983]

so we changed +5d8 precision damage to +10 on a bow user designed to not work with hips and manyshot and we call it a better solution?

[mrm3ntalist]

The changes will ensure better playability, since you are not required to click any more buttons.
Precise shot is automatic, while Sharpshooting is activated once and gives +2damage if the concentration check is made. I think both these changes are a step in the right direction to make OOBI a more enjoyable PRC to play.

OOBI works very well with hips. Its power is that you can do the additional damage from far away and from safety. When the mobs get close, hips and put some distance. To put it in an example, I have seen many archer powerbuilds get trashed in the frost keep because they need to get close to do the extra damage from hips. With mobs that move fast and usually in groups of 2+ the archer got hit a lot and needed the excessive use of umd and healkits to survive. To stay safe, those archers had to fire from distance greater than the hips range, losing the extra damage from the sneak attacks. OOBI can do just that more efficiently - Fire from distance and doing the extra damage of OOBI without any range limits.

I will agree with you on the manyshot issue. It does not make any sense for the precise shot to be made on the 2nd or 3rd flurry. The first shot should be the most "precise"

Finally the 10damage is something to be safe. We can always increase if we think it still underperforms. Its better than having to decrease it.

EDIT: Also I would move the Extended Sharp-Shooting to level 9 from 10, to allow builds such as ranger21/OOBI9

[dzidek1983]

i dont want to sound bad, but as of your post i understand OOBI now ads more power to HIPS manyshot chars cos it allows them to have good dmg from far and from close range

so this is a turn on the class from the direction it took at the beginning ad it was working as a PRC for archers that didnt want to abuse HIPS
so the PRC was designed to add A LOT of dmg and increase the shooting range so you can stay away from close range hits

why not leave 1d8 as it was and just delete the button function
sharpshooting added +2 AB and Dmg per one concentration check so maximum of +10 was possible - now it only ads a flat 2?

[mrm3ntalist]

What OOBI does, is to add damage without the need of hips. Hips is just for moving away. Therefore it is a class that would fit better in your concept of a non hips archer.

Currently precise shot does not work with manyshot, since it only fires either at the 2nd or 3rd flurry.

Finally I don't think you remember sharpshooting well. Before, you activated and you got one shot that was stacking the precise shot damage for as much as 5 rounds.

Now it adds +2 damage and +2AB to the +10 of the precise shot. Surely a different direction than before, but much more easier to play.

[dzidek1983]

i know you play/played archers with HIPS
i do know it was a ranger so you probably noticed the trouble an archer gets whn he doesnt HIDE

you need a lot of added damage to be decent as a non-hiding archer

my damage calculation for a fighter OOBI with the +4 magic longbow says he does avg 46 dmg per hit without sharpshooting but with precise bonus

now what we did was to cut the range of it by A LOT and decrease his dmg potential to avg 33 per hit

for me thats a real gimp to any non hips archer

if the button was an isse then you should add the dmg as a class bonus as you did in the current change, but the dmg should have been left alone

a non-hips archer really needs to kill things before they get to him...

i do realize the same kind of power could be used by HIPS chars to completely negate their power loss in longer range ( how ironic archers weaker on longer range ) so the QC probably decided to cut the dmg part like in half so the HIPS'ing OP builds just get the cake but cant really eat it, it's cool i understand that, but with the same move they gimped no hipsing archers

the change to sharpshooting is understandable as it now transfers to each hit with it extended version
but i would still make it scale by 1 to a maximum +5 bonus and then make the range of SS like 50% of that of the precision strike

and at the end by Gods make ti easy for everyone and ban the PRC for any HIPS multiclass

[mrm3ntalist]

my damage calculation for a fighter OOBI with the +4 magic longbow says he does avg 46 dmg per hit without sharpshooting but with precise bonus

I don't know how you get the 46 damage per hit. Precise shot damage was added Once in a round. So it was 5d8 per round. An average of 22

Now it fires twice per round either at the second or third flurry for an average of 20.

As you can see the average is almost the same. It had nothing to do with hips + damage. Only average damage per round.

I will more than agree with you about non hips archers. They are a pain to play and we discussed that extensively in one of our many IRC discussions in the past. I am for, adding more damage to the OOBI and put restrictions on hips. I believe that putting a hips restriction on the PRC will make it far less popular among the players

[dzidek1983]

Ah, your right... it was on the first shot only, if it now fires on the 2nd and 3rd shot its basically the same, sorry i falsly remebered it ads on each hit

i still think this should be a non-HIPS PRC

lets leave the close range shooting to them and build another version of archer...
no need to upgrade the manyshot assasins

it this was a case i see no problem of adding the dmg bonus to each hit in the round
and increasing the SS bonus as well

and the RANGE.. its really crucial

[mrm3ntalist]

Ah, your right... it was on the first shot only, if it now fires on the 2nd and 3rd shot its basically the same, sorry i falsly remebered it ads on each hit

Just to clarify it is either on the 2nd OR 3rd flurry. Still it is 2 attacks per round unless one went very heavy on medium BAB classes.

and the RANGE.. its really crucial

What you mean by that? OOBI has not range limitation. At least as far as I was able to test in the QC Jegs module

[dzidek1983]

yeah but it got extended range at the beginning now i dont see this added
instead extended range now affects SS number of attacks not the 120 feet shooting

[mrm3ntalist]

yeah but it got extended range at the beginning now i dont see this added
instead extended range now affects SS number of attacks not the 120 feet shooting

Oh you talk about the extended range on hips, which basically doubled the range where sneak attacks could fire? If so, that was never implemented.

Range wise, everything is the same as before, with no limitations at all.

[dzidek1983]

no i talk about this:

Previously - Ranged Precision I to V (each adding 1d8 damage)
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Order of the Bow Initiate
Specifics: As a standard action, an initiate may make a single precisely aimed attack with a ranged weapon, dealing an extra 1d8 points of damage if the attack hits. When making a ranged precision attack, an initiate must be within 120 feet of their target. An initiate’s ranged precision attack only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies.

Currently - Ranged Precision I to V
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Order of the Bow Initiate
Specifics: During a regular ranged attack an initiate takes a precisely aimed attack dealing an extra +2 points of damage every two class levels if the attack hits. An initiate’s ranged precision attack only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies.

you see the missing 120 feet part? so either the range isnt increased as before and its standard 60 feet as per game rules or currenlty there are no range limitations and i can shoot across the map...

furthermore i think i was right on the dmg part...

Specifics: The initiate’s senses and 'gut' for the shot become to attuned that he may make multiple ranged precision attacks (and sneak attacks, if he has the ability) at a range of up to 120 feet.

before with extended precision we got the bonus 5d8 added on ALL attacks per round
so its avg 22 to each hit (so up to possible 7*22=154 dmg per turn)
now we get only +20 dmg per turn
(please correct me again if im wrong)

[mrm3ntalist]

About the range: Nothing has changed than before. As long as you are able to fire a shot, the precision damage will be added no matter the range

About the damage.: the old implementation is still live on the server. I play an OOBI10 build and the precision damage only fires once per round. I can demonstrate if you like

[dzidek1983]

About the range: Nothing has changed than before. As long as you are able to fire a shot, the precision damage will be added no matter the range

ok BUT before the change range of precise shot was up to 120 feet
is it still that? or is this erased (cos it vanished from the description) and we are back to standard core range that was scripted in game (60 feet iirc - so 50% less range)?

About the damage.: the old implementation is still live on the server. I play an OOBI10 build and the precision damage only fires once per round. I can demonstrate if you like

then its clearly a bug, as with extended according to the description you should be able to make MULTIPLE attacks with precission damage added, its quite clear in the description of the feats if you read carefully (not that you didnt)

As a standard action, an initiate may make a single precisely aimed attack

The initiate’s senses and 'gut' for the shot become to attuned that he may make multiple ranged precision attacks

[mrm3ntalist]

Again about the range: There is no limitation that I could see from testing in the QC jegs module. I feel that as long as you are able to fire a shot, the precision damage will be added.

About the damage: Before, when you used precise shot, you could not use any other abilities in the same round - for example manyshot etc. That didn't look right to me, but that is how it was implemented. With extended precision you could use Precise shot, followed by manyshot for in the same round for example.