Opinions on RP concept? Auto Still AND Auto Silent

[Charraj]

I'm NOT making this character, but I am curious what people think.

The idea is a wizard with full Automatic Still Spell and full Automatic Silent Spell feats. He could cast without moving or speaking. Essentially, he could do magic just by thinking about it, or blow something up just by looking at it.

But from an IC standpoint, do you think other characters would be able to tell who is casting the spells, since there are no observable verbal or somatic components? If not, how much do you think other players would be willing to play along with that, considering that the OOC combat log would give it away?

Also, I am pretty sure that the OOC game mechanics woulld still make the character move and make casting noises. Assuming that is the case, do you guys think that would completely destroy any dramatic effect?

Basically, I am wondering how viable this RP concept would be.

[chad878262]

I know very little about casters our the viability, but the concept is fantastic!

[Charraj]

To be clear, I am not asking about mechanical viability. I am just asking you guys how you think this concept would carry out in RP. Would it be fun to RP with, or kind of a dud?

[grymhild]

I wish that Still Spell and Silent Spell actually deactivated the sounds and movements for spells, I'd like that.

anyway, it's interesting idea, as long as:

• it's not RP'd as psionics (not saying that this was your intention, but some people might try to RP that)
• it's still 'casting' an arcane spell, and detectable as an arcane spell
• if this were pnp, unless a caster has the Eschew Components feat, many spells would still require material components or a focus (and teleport, and dimension door still do, even on our server) (teleportation and runestones)
• it's not RP'd that the PC has always been able and always has cast spells this way, since even though you could take both still spell and silent spell at 1st level (and give up taking spellcasting prodigy) unfortunately, I'm pretty sure (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that to be able to combine Still and Silent this way, a PC would need to be a living legend among spell casters (ie 20+ level) before they qualify for epic feats. even if somone RCR'd a high level PC to start at 20th, that PC wasn't just born at 20th, they've been doing a lot of stuff to get there.

[Truthiness]

Seymor's character Robin Silver had full auto-still/silent spells and had some fun with them. I've always liked the idea and it definitely seems like something that would be fun to RP. We've discussed a few spells on the IRC that would be especially amusing. (The druid's spell Inferno for one, setting someone on fire just by looking at them. )
You just need players who are willing to play along with it, as it shows up in the combat log as identified even though it wouldn't be possible given the rules of spellcraft in pnp. (Spells also shows up as identified if you are in the same party as the person casting the spell, even if the character has 0 spellcraft, which really shouldn't be taken IC)
This rule is the one I'm referring to:

DC = 15 + spell level - Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

They could still identify the spell if it had noticable effects to it due to this pnp ruling.

DC = 20 + spell level - Identify a spell that's already in place and in effect. You must be able to see or detect the effects of the spell. No action required. No retry.

But from an IC standpoint, do you think other characters would be able to tell who is casting the spells, since there are no observable verbal or somatic components?

I'd say it depends on the spell, a spell like Inferno has no sort of visible effect coming from the caster, IIRC, but a spell like magic missiles would have the missiles coming from the caster. Keep in mind that there are sometimes other components to spells, namely material components and focuses/divine focuses, so those would need to be in effect depending on the spell and would be noticable.

The caster also needs to concentrate on the spell to cast it, which might be noticable.

If not, how much do you think other players would be willing to play along with that, considering that the OOC combat log would give it away?

I'd say a good percentage of players would be willing, although it might require a bit of OOC communication as not everyone realises that the person wouldn't be making any movements or noises when it is cast, thus making it impossible to spellcraft it or notice the character casting it unless they can see some sort of effects.

Also, I am pretty sure that the OOC game mechanics woulld still make the character move and make casting noises. Assuming that is the case, do you guys think that would completely destroy any dramatic effect?

They would indeed still cast the spell normally, which spoils it OOCly, but it can still be fun.

Basically, I am wondering how viable this RP concept would be.

It largely depends on how many people would be willing to play along with it, personally I'd love to see another character with it.



On the mechanical side of things. Auto-still/Auto-silent 0-9 requires 6 epic feats, which means you need at least one bonus epic feat to fit it in. It would be severely cutting back on the power of your build for the sake of RP, but I think it would definitely be worth it.

EDIT: One last note; Warlock's invocations are spell-like abilities, which means they don't have verbal nor somatic components so they wouldn't be identifiable nor easily noticable when cast unless they produced some visible effects. But that once again depends on if other people are willing to play along with it.

[grymhild]

also, despite it not making much sense, a RAW* reading of the rules means a stll-silent-eschew components spell _still_ provokes an attack of opportunity, just like a spell like ability (Sp) which also doesn't have somatic, verbal or material components - unless cast defensively

, and if observed by someone who has spellcraft, can be detected at DC 15+spell level. (maybe, if the observer had detect magic active, and the caster wasn't under a non-detection effect)


* RAW: Rules As Written

[grymhild]

You just need players who are willing to play along with it, as it shows up in the combat log as identified even though it wouldn't be possible given the rules of spellcraft in pnp. (Spells also shows up as identified if you are in the same party as the person casting the spell, even if the character has 0 spellcraft, which really shouldn't be taken IC)
This rule is the one I'm referring to:

DC = 15 + spell level - Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

good catch, Truthiness.

I had forgotten that "You must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components." was specifically in there.

[Nomster]

The RP idea behind it is interesting but those who fail to detect your spell through Spellcraft only get the visual cue, IE they see your character cast/speak with no clue in the combat log that the spell was still & silent. So you basically would have to tell players OOCly that it is not possible for them to detect it just because they have no way of finding out that they should not be able to, if they lack spellcraft.

[grymhild]

the way we are set up right now *nod*

however, I believe that NWNX could be configured to intercept the server's spellcraft checks, and a script written to interpret them as per pnp

[Charraj]

I'm pretty sure (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that to be able to combine Still and Silent this way, a PC would need to be a living legend among spell casters (ie 20+ level) before they qualify for epic feats.

That is correct. Automatic Still Spell and Automatic Silent Spell are epic feats, and it is the only way to combine the two effects in NWN2. Again, I am not rolling up this character, but of course I would RP my character sheet if I did! I would not RP this ability unless I actually had the feats.

Seymor's character Robin Silver had full auto-still/silent spells and had some fun with them.

So it's been done?? Yesssss. How did other people respond to it?

DC = 15 + spell level - Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell's verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

Oooh right. Source: PHB, page 82. So they could identify the effects of the spell after it's been casted, but (arguably) not as it's being casted?

The RP idea behind it is interesting but those who fail to detect your spell through Spellcraft only get the visual cue, IE they see your character cast/speak with no clue in the combat log that the spell was still & silent. So you basically would have to tell players OOCly that it is not possible for them to detect it just because they have no way of finding out that they should not be able to, if they lack spellcraft.

Yeah, that's the kind of thing I was thinking about. Cool in concept, but borked by the game mechanics, lol

[Moltrazahn]

... so i can roll a wizard with high enough bluff... and go around telling people I'm half gorgon... because people turn to stone when I look at them REALLY hard?

I'm sold! Plus... full plate use... smack on a sword... you could be that horrible fighter nobody takes seriously... who weird stuff keeps happening around (rp'ed as acaccidents) "no! I don't know where that comet came from!"

[DM Narshe]

It's been brought up a couple times to the DMs. Basically all that has been decided about it is:

Silent and Stilled doesn't equate to Stealth casting.


Spell effects are still noticed regardless of verbal or somatic components existing. Arguably, there could be a few spells that wouldn't be noticed but it'd probably require a DM at the time to decide (or a bunch of players coming to an agreement).

For instance, I would imagine a Silence/Stilled Sending to be pretty difficult to notice. Not saying that's a DM decision on it, just giving an example of something that might be harder to spot than... fireball.

[Blackman D]

Oooh right. Source: PHB, page 82. So they could identify the effects of the spell after it's been casted, but (arguably) not as it's being casted?

you would have to consider the casting time of the spell, if you go by pnp rules the casting time unless its anything other than standard is generally the same as your initiative roll (so if your initiative is a 5, you cast on 10, if its higher than half then you end up casting at the end of the round), so in theory anyone able to see you at the start of casting is able to do a spellcraft of what you are casting

anyone seeing it after you cast it has a different check, the "effects already in place" DC to see what you have done, assuming the spell has a lingering effect

the catch would be when casting any spell with an instant cast time, then with auto still and silent it would be like you blinked and crap just blew up, and of course anything longer than standard is gonna be a give away either way you look at it, but they would have at least have been there when you started it

[Charraj]

It's been brought up a couple times to the DMs. Basically all that has been decided about it is:

Silent and Stilled doesn't equate to Stealth casting.

That answers things pretty well, lol

[Karond]

Also, I am pretty sure that the OOC game mechanics woulld still make the character move and make casting noises.

I'm not 100% sure on autostill, but I'm 100% sure on auto silent. Auto silent does not make the generic casting noises, which is a boon in itself. I do believe it's the same with auto-still as well, no hand movements in the mechanics, from what I remember. This is actually pretty good since if you're interrupted, the game has a tendency to want to finish the animation which extends the time to when you can cast again to more than a round. I'm sure all players with spell-casting characters have noticed this annoying feature, that it seems to take almost 2 rounds to cast that getaway spell after being interrupted.

What the mechanics will do towards you however is pinpointing your auto still auto silent character as the source. Fireballs will still form and fly from the character's front arc, arc lightning will still start near your chest and stretch outwards etc. IC this would still be the case, since you're limited by range. Random stuff doesn't happen all around the character. People should be pretty clear about that it's you doing that stuff, since it clearly originates from you (As long as its visual I guess).

They might be awed that it happens though, as you just seem to "think" and magic starts happening from you

Plus, you'll be the NR.1 guy or girl to know in a hostage situation.