Once a Blood Mage, always a Blood Mage?

[Steve]

Hello,
What are the possibilities—or the chances—that a Character, could renounce their Blood Magic ways, and therefore, justify rebuilding the Character without Blood Magus levels? Take Scarification, as an example: are they scars that appear/disappear, or have they any permanent lasting effect on the body? Or still, Thicker than Water...can such an transformation be reversed? If so, what sort of Magic—either arcane or divine—allow for a reversion?

This pertains to the Lore of the Blood Magus, as well as our Server request of "role-play your Character Sheet."

Considering the above, and with the ease in which the RCR NPC allows the Player to simply "rewrite" the Character Sheet at will, to what extent should in-character "profession" (i.e., Class or PrC) be as easy to "recycle" as it is to OOC recycle your XP into a new build?

[Darkcloud777]

if a person can rcr from a human to an elf I see no reason that a person should not be able to renounce their blood mage. Just my thoughts however on the matter. as for the chances of it...... it all comes down to do you have a rp justified background to do so.

[Steve]

if a person can rcr from a human to an elf ...

Doing THAT without significant role-play—and DM oversight—is in a similar vein, to what I am asking about Blood Magi.

Yes, players can do both mechanically...but in the context of an RP-focused Server, what are the lines?

[DM Narshe]

I don't see why someone couldn't RCR away Blood Mage levels. It seems like it would be removing Warlock levels from a character.

Is there any reason why it shouldn't be allowed?


I don't think it's really a significant enough of an issue to set-up guidelines for it. Be tasteful with what you do and we'll handle it on a case-by-case basis for now.

I can't really think of a relevant time in the past where it has been a problem. Something I would consider an issue would be a half-orc RCRing into a drow and keeping same persona. Or something guild/class restriction related such as a red wizard leaving the faction and becoming elven instead.

[Steve]

Is there any reason why it shouldn't be allowed?

Are you actually asking me for my opinion?

Considering your answer, would it not be appropriate to define "tasteful" a little better? You seem to be of the opinion that changing Race is a no go, considering that is a physical change.

So here I am to argue that Blood Magus makes a physical change on a Character. But maybe a Character never "made it" to Thicker than Water stage—say, the Player only built the toon to lvl 4 or 6 to gain PSC—and Scarification isn't really a permanent physical effect.

Then, my question is rather "hard core RP" oriented, and that doesn't apply to BGTSCC, because it is a medium-RP Server. Is that the answer you'd take from me?

On a related note, having been the DM to "grant" Hoihe's PC Hoihe Dacino a change from Human to Half-Elven, that "granting" was based on 1.5 years of a Player—being Hoihe—asking, researching, making IC strides, HUGE strides, to change his PC's Race, nay, being. The actually change occurred through a huge DM + Player storyline, and...it involved a HUGE sacrifice: Hoihe's own Elven friend and crewmember was absorbed through an act of sacrifice, leaving Hoihe now two parts: the Human Hoihe and half-elven of Rain (which also incorporated a large part of Rain's psychic being, meant to linger inside Hoihe as an inner voice trapped in his body, pushing his alignment to a more sinister side, as well). How has Hoihe—the Player—incorporated all this into his RP since that change? Does anyone care if he does or not?

So I have two points here: 1) Hoihe the Player made a HUGE RP attempt, both public and documented, to have either an arcane or divine transformation occur to his Character Hoihe. It was earned, in more ways than one. It involved many other Players, and many DMs, before an actual many page DM thread of discussion led to an IC DM Event—my Event—which provided an actual means to make it happen. Shouldn't this point be something the DMs ask when making a specific and transformative Class change? Point 2) is, if "issues" like this should be made on a case-by-case basis, and by DMs opinion, without guidelines of any sort to govern what is believed acceptable by the Team in total, does that not lead to possibilities of favoritism, especially if the PC being changed is owned by a Player that is friends with the DMs, or worse, a DM themselves?

Of course, this is a theoretical point I'm making.

I don't see why someone couldn't RCR away Blood Mage levels.

I don't either, actually. It's as easy as can be...mechanically. But that wasn't what I was asking, if you reread my original post. I'm asking the Team: "What are the possibilities—or the chances—that a Character, could renounce their Blood Magic ways...If so, what sort of Magic—either arcane or divine—allow for a reversion? "

[Lockonnow]

Thayen vill be come a slave to Elf

[DM Golem]

So here I am to argue that Blood Magus makes a physical change on a Character. But maybe a Character never "made it" to Thicker than Water stage—say, the Player only built the toon to lvl 4 or 6 to gain PSC—and Scarification isn't really a permanent physical effect.

Then, my question is rather "hard core RP" oriented, and that doesn't apply to BGTSCC, because it is a medium-RP Server. Is that the answer you'd take from me?

I don't either, actually. It's as easy as can be...mechanically. But that wasn't what I was asking, if you reread my original post. I'm asking the Team: "What are the possibilities—or the chances—that a Character, could renounce their Blood Magic ways...If so, what sort of Magic—either arcane or divine—allow for a reversion? "

Its not really a hardcore vs medium RP issue as even with a hardcore approach, its not actually clear whats what.

There is virtually no lore on Bloodmages, even how they come to be is ambiguous (it is a requirement to have died, but it is not clear if this happens to all mages, or some; whether it can be planned or is just random). This ambiguity leaves a lot of room for interpretation - for example you cite a physical change meaning that there should be no ability to RCR in "hardcore" terms, but thats no different to a number of other classes that undergo some physical change - usually derived from magic. Is a magically derived change an irreversible one? I doubt it.

Arguably removal of said sources of magic will remove the magical effect, thus literally ceasing to use blood magic would remove the effects of it. Arguably if you can learn to do something by a process you can learn to undo it, leaving it just an act of will. Arguably anything that returns a body to its pristine state should remove all physical changes from classes (resurrection, regeneration) - and the hardcore RP approach there would be to RCR as soon as one of those is cast!

Beyond the requirement for a Blood Magus to have died prior to becoming a Blood Magus, Blood Magus lore and how it works is ambiguous - and ultimately this is a grey area left to player storytelling - appropriately, as it gives people greater control over their characters and making personal decisions on fuzzy lore is precisely that. We allow use of the RCR NPC for character development, although we would like RP behind it - and we trust players to know their characters better than us. We just reserve the right to step in if something becomes damaging to the setting (EG, race changes); however it would be unusual if we singled out Blood Magus as a class when there is so little lore on how it works and the class is not hugely prominent in the setting - thus the various interpretations are not damaging to the setting. This paragraph is the answer to the OP.

Blood Magus is not really an issue over and above people RCRing into paladin (deciding themselves if a god calls them), cleric (suddenly gaining divine power lorewise gained from years of study and doctine), wizard ("Oh look, I learned magic in 6 weeks!"). We allow these RCRs for storytelling purposes, I don't see Blood Magus falling outside of that.

I would say from a hardcore RP perspective there would be far more problems with warlocks RCRing than with blood mages, given warlocks have clearly defined lore about the difficulty of evading pacts and pacts usually also involves NPCs (backstory NPCs though, but ones having effect IG). It would have perhaps been a better example for the OP with regards to asking about the RCR function.

This is of course a Questions for DMs thread, but its not a discussion thread - I hope this has answered the OP's question.

[Lockonnow]

well one DM told me about the lore to become a Bloodmagus you most die/ sacrifice youre life to become a Bloodmagus

[DM Bloodlust]

Blood mages die to be what they are, on that part at least there is no ambiguity.

Even if you choose to not use this new power that literally saved your life, it should be part of your RP even after you RCR away the levels. The scars, well, seems like it's on a case to case basis. Scars can run deep, and these are infused with magic. It's uncertain if spells like regenerate can heal that or not, and in any case a bloodmage does not have to scar themselves to use blood magic. They do wound themselves to let blood out to fuel spells with blood component, but that should probably be treated as any other wound; so regenerate works.

I can only imagine the self-restraint it would take to step away from blood magic. Arcane spellcasters tend to often be after power, and here you are the living proof what you've utterly failed at least once with your current magical powers. To then suddenly have a powerful source available to you, that can help you make sure it won't ever happen again...and then choose not to use it, at all. That takes considerable self-restraint. Maybe with a touch of lacking curiosity or a drive for power as well.

That would be my take on it at least

[Hoihe]

My own take on RCRing away blood magus is an amnesiac spell.

Basically, high risk spell attacking your own memories to destroy or at least weaken your understanding of blood magic. Decent chance of forgetting other things.


Probably could be combined with an ilmateri or lathanderite pilgrimage of purification afterwards/during.

[Hoihe]

Actually, amnesiacs might not even be required.

Some quotes from Call of Cthulhu, Dark Corners of the Earth:

"The ignorant and the deluded are, I think, in a strange way to be envied. That
which is not known of does not trouble us, while an imagined but insubstantial
peril does not harm us. To know the truths behind reality is a far greater
burden."

"Just as the body can, given time and rest, heal itself from injury, so, too,
does the mind have its own defenses. The chief among these is oblivion: the
merciful darkness that shields mind and memory from the greatest of horrors."

Basically, a Good aligned character who survives due to blood magic might end up suffering due to it, and their mind would eventually give up in the struggle. One part of their mind would have to go, and luck befalls them - it's the corruption that is eaten by oblivion.

HOWEVER!

"Horror - the true horror that paralyzes the mind and scars it with nightmares
- is never truly healed. Even if the mind draws a protective veil over
unbearable memories, still one is left with an impaired ability to withstand
such horror again."

Basically, the oblivion is not perfect. The character will be VERY likely to befal temptations of power again.

[DM Golem]

Edited the answer above to account for Bloodlust's valid points - the requirement for a Blood Magus to have died is a concrete thing about the class.