Monk build questions

[Echo-01]

Hey folks, I've been away for a while and I'm eager to come back with a new character.

I'm playing a monk for the very first time, I've already spent some time coming up with a couple of builds but I have questions about some stuff.

1. Shadow Jump -

How does it work mechanically? Is it as good of an ass saver as my forum research has indicated? Tell me your experience with it.

2. Circle Kick -

Is it any good?

3. Cleave -

Do monks use this?

4. I'm considering a Monk/SD build, is the shadow summon useful at all in combat?

Any tips about playing a monk are appreciated! Thanks!

[Steve]

Welcome back.

Here are my take on your questions:

1. Shadow Jump only works within the same area/map your toon is currently in. And it is not a automatic click-and-shadow jump Feat—you have to open the Inventory, find the marked Rune for that Area, then click Shadow Jump, then select that rune). That is far too long an operation to save any assess, imho.

2. Circle Kick used to suck eggs because it would fire and disengage the monk toon from its current target, to another, forcing the Player to reselect the mob your toon had most recently been beating to a pulp. However, Theodore01 has told me that this issue is fixed, and does not re-select the mob after firing (hurrah!). I haven't tested it myself though.

3. Cleave can be useful, but honestly, for monk build, you're better off choosing another feat (unless you just like Circle Kicking and Cleaving link a wild monk-ey).

4. Some people thing the Shadow Summons are rather weak, and what is worse is they are not Neutral aligned, so there is issue for some with the Evil shadow following them around (and I think a Shadow should have Concealment as well, which it doesn't ?). DeathGrowl knows more, they have a SD level 10 toon. If you want to kick some serious arse, you pick Assassin over SD.

[Thorsson]

2. This has been the subject of much debate. You get an extra attack, but you don't determine where it lands. You may then continue to attack the new target rather than the original.

3. To get Cleave you also have to take Power Attack, which you can't use, because it clashes with Flurry. Given that it's only one attack per death, I'd say it's almost certainly not worth it.

Most people think Monk25/SD5 > Monk20/SD10. Why do you need another ass-saver when you already have HiPS and Epic Dodge? There are also possibilities with FoF and Fighter (with the right Race to avoid XP Penalty) to boost AB.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?48838
http://nwn2db.com/build/?102771
http://nwn2db.com/build/?217343

[Karond]

1.) Like teleport, except only works to transport you around the same area as you're in. Tedious to use for more than one location.

2.) No, it's awful.

3.) It's of some use, but 2 feats isn't worth the benefit for monks.

4.) Shadow summon is useless. Here, take a look at the level 10 version:

Hidden: show

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For your kind of idea, the best builds are either 20 Monk, 4 fighter, 6 shadowdancer OR replacing fighter with divine champion in case you want to avoid xp penalties with some races.

These are dex based builds, that aim for expose weakness and epic dodge. With imp evasion and mind immunity, it only cares about fortitude saves for equipment. Fights unarmed to take advantage of the adamantine fists. This is an excellent example: http://nwn2db.com/build/?99769

[Thorsson]

Divine Champion is a bit meh on Dex Monks, as you don't get Unarmed Weapon Mastery or Weapon Specialization. That's why I think FoF is a better option if Fighter gets you an XP Penalty.

[Echo-01]

Can you explain the xp penalty to me? I made a 18 monk/12 fighter and noticed that penalty!

[Thorsson]

Apart from favored class (for Humans highest class is favored) all your base classes have to stay within one step of each other.

So M18/F12 gets no XP Penalty for Human or Dwarf, but would for Elf or Tiefling.

[mrieder79]

The penalty does not apply if your additional base classes are within 1 of your most experienced class. Therefore if you can keep monk and fighter within 1 of each other most of the time, you will not be subject to the xp penalty very much. You will hit the penalty in the upper epics, though, when your Monk levels inevitably outstrip your fighter levels.

[Storm Munin]

Actually when things go south in PvE/PvP shadow jump is not so bad.

Hips it, shadow jump and now you have ample time to either walk away or pull off a teleport scroll from a location your nemesis will have to find in order to trace your teleport.


Circle kick, not liked because of what has already been mentioned


Cleave, same as above


Shadow summon is fun roleplay fluff, it can be useful in combat especially if buffed but a monk/assassin would have more value for the investment using hips to have the enemy turn its back on you.

[Echo-01]

This is all very helpful info guys! I'm excited to start my monk! I came up with three different builds for my monk.

I figured that SD Shadow summon was pretty useless for anything other than RP. Shadow Jump sounds fun and great for RP and dungeon convenience. This build is limited on feats and is the weakest of the builds I tried out, but it has no xp penalty! (Includes Epic DOdge!)

Monk/SD: http://nwn2db.com/build/?227584

But the Monk20/SD 10 build is just too weak for my liking, it's very a pretty slipper build but the AB is just too low compared the next build I tried out. This one is heavy on fighter, trying to get all those great fighter feats that increase damage and AB. This is a straight up brawler build with no ability to hide or do much else other than kick ass. (No epic Dodge)

Monk/Fighter: http://nwn2db.com/build/?227533

The final build I tried out was a mix of both thanks to Karond's suggestion. Monk 20/SD 5/Fighter 5. This build is a balance of the two builds above with decent AB, HiPS and Epic Dodge. I'm leaning towards this build so I'd love some feedback on it and suggestions on how to get more out of the build with better feat choices.

Monk/Fght/SD: http://nwn2db.com/builder.php?id=227689

Any other tips and suggestions are greatly appreciated! Thank you!

[chad878262]

Just a couple general comments. The fighter 12 build doesn't need so much dex. Better focusing on strength for more damage or focusing on wisdom, stopping fighter at 8 or 10 and getting intuitive attack (which also opens up an epic feat for more fist damage).

High dexterity if you want ptwf with kama's, strength or wisdom for fists.

Fighter 5 (or any odd fighter level) is pointless. Better going F4, and putting the other level in monk or SD.

So if you want to go Dex I'd go monk 25/SD 5 and get PTWF.and epic dodge fight with kamas. If you want to go fists I'd go either F10/M20 or F4/M23/SD3(but stop dex at 19 and put points in STR or WIS). I'm sure there are more ways to optimize and fighter 12/monk 18 can definitely work, but should probably focus primarily on strength with dex/wis of 13 using +3 items to get the most out of stats or 14 using an item giving +2 to multiple stats.

[Echo-01]

Thanks for the suggestions but whats PTWF?

and I went with 5 lvls of fighter for that third build because it gave me +1 AB. Don't get much with another level of monk or SD...or do I?

[chad878262]

PTWF= Perfect Two Weapon Fighting. You lose AB at SD5 so going SD5/F5 is the same final AB as SD6/F4. Shadow dancer gives more skills so that's why F5 is pointless. Monk 21 would lose AB, but gain a level of SR, a little monk speed and whatever other level dependant abilities monks get.

[Karond]

You lose AB at SD5 so going SD5/F5 is the same final AB as SD6/F4. Shadow dancer gives more skills so that's why F5 is pointless. Monk 21 would lose AB, but gain a level of SR, a little monk speed and whatever other level dependant abilities monks get.

I think the SR is negliable, plus he already gets maximum speed at level 18 monk.

Monk 20, SD 6, F 4 is just superior in everyway to the alternatives people have posted here. That last SD level is not just for more skillpoints, SD6/F4 gets +1 fortitude, will and reflex compared to SD5/F5. Monk 23 is useless, you don't even get a damage increase and you lose BAB.

Trust me Echo-01, you'll not regret going 20 monk, 6 SD, 4 fighter. Epic Dodge is fantastic and you need it. Adamantine fists on this build is worth using, instead of wasting feats on perfect two weapon fighting and lowering your damage output by 10.5 dmg per hit by using kamas. Stealth for when it's needed, speed for when it's needed, good expose weakness damage. It's an overall strong monk build.

It's certainly stronger than 25 M/5 SD, which gets -1,5 dmg, -5 AB, worse saves and only has +1 AC, a feat and slightly better SR to show for it. Not worth it.

[Thorsson]

+1 to Karond.