Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help?

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Bad Omens
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Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help?

Unread post by Bad Omens »

These are the questions of the day.....

Is Black Flame Zealot really as weak as it looks?
If so, how can it realistically be improved?

Subject: Re: New Classes
Luna wrote:Image


Black Flame Zealot


The Order of the Black Flame is the hidden blade of their faith, a secret society of holy slayers devoted to the worship of a dark deity of fire and destruction. Trained in unholy rites, the black flame zealots use stealth, divine magic, and the zeal of fanaticism to destroy those who have given offense to their god. Even great rulers are not above the deity's wrath, since the Order is a sanctioned and respected means for the wealthy and powerful to pursue vendettas.

Clerics and particularly devout rogues or fighters most often become black flame zealots. A small number of the order's members are high-ranking clerics who keep an eye open for fellow devotees who seem like suitable candidates.

Requirements:

Alignment: Any nongood.
Spellcasting: Able to cast 2nd level divine spells.
Skills: Hide 8 ranks, Lore 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks.
Feats: Iron Will, 1d6 Sneak Attack damage

<color=Gold>Class Features:</color>

- Hit Die: d6
- Base Attack Bonus: Medium.
- High Saves: Reflex, Will.
- Weapon Proficiencies: None.
- Armor Proficiencies: None.
- Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier.
- Class Skills: Concentration, Craft Alchemy, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Hide, Listen, Lore, Move Silently, Open Lock, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot, and Tumble

Class Abilities:

Level 1: Zealous Heart, Spellcasting Progression Feat
Level 2: Poison Use
Level 3: Spellcasting+2, +1d6 Sneak Attack
Level 4:
Level 5: Spellcasting+3
Level 6: +2d6 Sneak Attack
Level 7: Spellcasting+4, Sacred Flame
Level 8:
Level 9: Spellcasting+5, +3d6 Sneak Attack
Level 10:

- Divine Spellcasting: At each odd-numbered black flame zealot level, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level.

- Zealous Heart: A black flame zealot is immune to fear, magical or otherwise. Unlike a paladin's aura of courage, this confers no special benefits on his companions. A Black Flame Zealot gains this ability at first level.

- Poison Use: At 2nd level, a black flame zealot gains the ability to use poison safely, as the assassin ability.

- Sneak Attack: At 3rd level, the black flame zealot gains sneak attack. This ability adds to the rogue's sneak attack ability, adding an extra 1d6 points of damage. This bonus rises to +2d6 at 6th level, and +3d6 at 9th level..

Sacred Flame: Beginning at 7th level, at will, a black flame zealot can command the melee weapons in his possession to burn with a black, deadly fire. The weapons gain the flaming ability, dealing 2 points of fire damage per successful attack in addition to its normal weapon damage.

- Death Touch: Avengers and Black Flame Zealots gain a death touch ability (1 minute cooldown). This ability takes 2 rounds to cast and rolls 1d6 for each level of Avenger, BFZ, and Assassin and compares that to the target's health. If the roll is higher, the creature dies (if not immune to death magic and crits). This is a replacement ability to make up for the loss of DC on Death Attack (it doesn't account for class levels).
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mrm3ntalist
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

it needs help
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Aelcar
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by Aelcar »

Just my opinion mate:

1) Yes, the class is terribad. But not because of its intrinsic power...the problem are the pre-reqs.

2) The way to improve it would be to either eliminate the spellcasting requirement (and change the class), or the sneak attack one (much easier).

The way it is now, you're basically pigeonholed into Cleric/Rogue/Assassin/BFZ types. Which are very bad.
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thids
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by thids »

Up the spellcasting to 6/10, the 6th level coming in at 10 which is currently an empty level. Add another thing to the 10th level, even something that isn't overly powerful, and suddenly you have a fairly decent PrC.
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chad878262
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by chad878262 »

I would go so far as 8/10 or 9/10 caster progression. Compare to eldritch knight for fighter mage builds since blackflame zealot is thief cleric (essentially). Shouldn't have to give up 5, or even 4 levels of caster progression IMO.
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Theodore01
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by Theodore01 »

Aelcar wrote:the problem are the pre-reqs.
Yeah, just switch Iron Will with True Believer. :roll:

OK in earnest,
the removal of the sneak attack requirement would make that class much more appealing.
And i see the same problem here, as with the Divineseeker class: too much crossclass skillpoints required for a skill starved class like a cleric.
Adding some spellcasting progression at the empty levels would help also.
grunts
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by grunts »

Yeah the class doesn't get enough to justify half progression. Divine caster will be immune to fear anyways and poison use/death touch is fluff. Sacred flame is good but doesn't amount to more then one more sneak attack die. Skill points 4+ int is also bad for a build like this.

The class is easy to fix though, it needs either 8/10 progression or +2d6 more sneak attack. Maybe even a combination e.g: 6/10, +1d6 sneak atk, skill points + 6/lv. Keep in mind getting black flame zealot 10 makes it way too costly to get HIPS through assassin, so you're also giving up the strongest sneak attack class.
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by Karond »

As much as the pre-reqs sucks, I wouldn't change them. It hurts the few who have taken the pre-reqs and the class, to find that their bad choices are no longer necessary. Instead, buff what's there.

CL at every level except the 2nd. Sneak attack at 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9th level. Increase sacred flame damage to D6, or if possible, even +2 divine and +2 fire. Remove unnecessary lines of text mentioning Avenger, or missing to mention duration on sacred flame. Have assassin's death attack qualify for the class.

That should make it mediocre at least, and would be my suggestion :)
Lag
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by Lag »

I want to like this class soooo much. I really do. I just can't seem to make it work every time I try using it in a build idea. It just seems there are other ways to get what it offers that are subjectively a much stronger choice character wise.

However, I remember in pnp the class did have a lot of the same failings. If you recall, the class is actually a port from a 2e specialty priest to a 3.0 prestige class, both of which are terribly specific in what could qualify as it was a class for a particular sect of priests of kossuth. I don't think it ever translated well from the fiction it was introduced in to the tabletop to begin with. It also never got a 3.5 rework.

All those things along coupled with the class never really translating to the nwn2 engine quite right makes this class a huge fustercluck right from the word go.
grunts
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by grunts »

I agree with Karond, removing the prereqs would be a mistake. A prestige class should always require sacrifice and there's way too many that are about as hard to get into as DeVry University.
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Bad Omens
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by Bad Omens »

Karond wrote:As much as the pre-reqs sucks, I wouldn't change them. It hurts the few who have taken the pre-reqs and the class, to find that their bad choices are no longer necessary. Instead, buff what's there.

CL at every level except the 2nd. Sneak attack at 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9th level. Increase sacred flame damage to D6, or if possible, even +2 divine and +2 fire. Remove unnecessary lines of text mentioning Avenger, or missing to mention duration on sacred flame. Have assassin's death attack qualify for the class.

That should make it mediocre at least, and would be my suggestion :)
Karond, if what you are getting at is the concern for RcR requests from players whom have been dedicated enough to take this class........well, that is about 4 people, lol.

I agree that the Prereqs are extremely steep for very mediocore reward. If the Prereqs were dialed back, it could open up class combinations as I believe Aelcar was alluding. I don't know if that should be what is done, but for sure, something has to be changed.

I like these ideas also (instituting one, or two, but not all ;) ):

*Removing Sneak Dice Prereq
*Adding a more spellcasting advance
*Adding 1d4 Fire DMG at level 7, since most class combinations omit base dmg and you are extremely dependent upon sneak dice
*Giving 1, or 2, bonus Feats at lvls 9 & 10 (much as warrior of darkness)

Another note:
Since almost anyone whom would build a BFZ would be taking Assassin to bolster the class, Poison Use at level one seems completely irrelevant and I would actually take that off.
Lag
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by Lag »

I disagree. I feel these things should also be balanced with ease of play and making it an enjoyable experience. Opening up options seems like it would allow for more character ideas to come from it.

So what the source material says it needs these 8 things to get this class. There's a big difference from staying true to the theme and feel of the material and making something that's a mechanical mess to qualify for and frankly in fun to play.

Unfortunately nwn2 is not pnp. In pnp things can be tailored for your party of 5 on the fly so everyone feels important. In nwn2, especially in a pw, that goes away and you are unfortunately playing a very rigid interpretation of those rules.
Eclypticon
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by Eclypticon »

I thought we already agreed to make changes to this PrC. Right?
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Blackman D
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by Blackman D »

one of many still pending yes
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Theodore01
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Re: Wow, is it just me, or does Black Flame Zealot need help

Unread post by Theodore01 »

Eclypticon wrote:I thought we already agreed to make changes to this PrC. Right?
please do enlighten us - what was agreed on ?
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