Comic: The Economic system and why Karond is so rich...

[Karond]

[Karond]

This comic is both an explanation of things I get asked all the time, and a suggestion up for debate. I've argued for this approach for years here, but there is always someone that puts a stop to it without a counter argument, or cuts out items that I make, or refuses to let anything in that is better than Thunderhammer's equipment. The comic is a new approach to getting this point across.

There is a shiny excitement to finding new equipment and it's overall a good experience, but there is also a big drawback with how the server has formulated its loot system as a barter system similar to an MMO whose purpose is to extend the struggle. If we instead had better shops, particularly epic shops, not only would we get what the comic argues, but also help people along in trades. If a hat costs 10.000 in a shop, it's difficult to sell it for more and thus trick people. Plus, if the hat is sold for 10.000 in a shop, all a character needs is the gold. It puts a clock on when they can get what they want. There is still effort, just not excessive amounts that lead to frustration, and there is still that fresh excitement over finding new stuff even if you would instantly know its value rather than not being sure as most people are right now.

Many people view me as greedy, and believe that I've hundreds of mules full of epic equipment and loot the server several hours per day, but as the comic shows that's not the case. I'm merely playing the community against itself, and it's precisely this that has made me far richer than anyone else and will keep me there (even if we wipe the server today, I'll be the richest within a few months. I was the richest player in my NWN community as well with the same method). How rich? I'm close to 40 million just in gold at the moment.

Yet, people sometimes feel frustrated with me, or even angry, when I don't accept their trades. I find that they do not realize that we're in a barter system, and the value that gold actually has in it when everyone has Bob's mentality. They often seem to think that I'm a shop rather than a merchant trading items for items. It's just evident how much shops would do for the overall happiness, balance and fairness of the server. If anything, I'm a service provider. I help out a community that is full of the mentality that Bob, Zac and Emma displayed, by making trades possible. I may not be that generous to people that have 500k+, precisely because I view the player market as a hostile environment. Go look at the auction topics, and you see that most people are asking for far more than they give, or giving far less than they recieve. I do however regularly give things to poorer players.

I may be the most brutal powerbuilder there is in our community, and I view everything as raw mechanics. To be able to make chain trades happen where I'm part of the chain, what I have needs to be as desirable as possible to as many people as possible, or if the item is specialized to particular classes, be of such classes that are really popular among players. I don't think that's fully grasped by people wanting to trade with me. I often get offered trades for extremely specialized wares or even items that have little use. A +4 intelligence heavy shield has a really powerful enchantment on it sure, but if noone can realistically use it then its value is accordingly. Mechanical effectiveness is everything when it comes to value, but my tactics would not exist if we were more logical with our economic system.

Ideally, shops should contain all the loot table items at prices that reflect their mechanical power, plus extra ones that suffice to equal the randomized item system. Further, DM rewards should not be better than shop items IMO, but rather different. Getting a high value shop item in itself is a reward, but one can make it feel special without it being better. If everyone runs around with a popular +D6 acid rapier bought in shops, a reward could simply be an identical rapier but with D6 electrical instead. It provides enough uniqueness to be cool, without translating into mechanical power. The mechanical power is a concern when it's out of reach for everyone, as with DM events and indeed grandfathered items, and it leads to the issues the comic highlights.

Anyway, that's some of what I wanted to portray. Hope you liked the comic. For the record, my best "perfect chain trade" in which I invested nothing involved 5 people. That was a good day

[Steve]

1. Karond the player is not Karond the PC. That seems to be lost here.
2. If it wasn't for a TOTALLY BROKEN ECONOMY because of unlimited gold coins—which defies all reality, even a fantasy one—gold would have a real value, on par with items.
3. Enchanting and/or crafting could easily utilize the current, broken gold-has-no-value economy of NWN2, because one wouldn't have to rely on luck, just persistence...and definitely not have to deal with the super evilness that is Karond (player or PC! )

Oh, and I guess there is 4, as well: just don't care about uber items. Period. Role-play doesn't require cool things. It's the easiest thing to dismiss the wealth and any "brutal powerbuilder," by simply not wanting what they have or do.

[Karond]

Sure, there are players that aren't interested in items and that's fine of course

And indeed, crafting can make up for part of what the shops would do for the economy, but you're wrong on point 2. Limiting gold, as in either minimizing it or have its total amount fixed in the economy doesn't solve anything. It's a flawed theory that theVoid keps telling people.

Gold is only as valuable as what it can buy. If you can't buy everything with it, it loses value. That's what shops remedies, but since players will still keep the mentality of Bob in the comic with limited gold because it comes naturally, limited gold doesn't produce the same effect. It has virtually no noticable effect on the economy at all.

[Lux]

This was a fun read, thank you.

I'm curious, do you see any other way this PC power disparity (that tilting board thingy with the monkey on it, very nice) can be rectified? Would more items through for example non-epic events help? Or would they simply risk becoming more shiny trinkets for some to use for epics, and further event chasing? If the items are reasonably balanced, I mean, and not epic straight off the bat.

[Karond]

The problem with DM events is when they give out items better than what you can aquire elsewhere, but also how much easier it is to aquire them compared to spending effort elsewhere. It leads to event-chasing and indeed bias, as not everyone gets to participate since DMs aren't everywhere at once. What your suggestion would do is just tilting the numbers. If we've 5% rich and 95% not rich now when it comes to equipment, that suggestion would just increase the amount being rich, but not to the point where those who are not rich is 0%.

Shops have the benefit that it's an even playing ground for everyone. It's some luck, as some will get gold faster depending on what they manage to loot and of course the time they put into it, but everyone has a chance on their own.

[Steve]

Gold is only as valuable as what it can buy. If you can't buy everything with it, it loses value.

What you say above is true, however, that has little to do with a limited supply of gold, and an economy that requires it. If gold coin was just a limited as Karond's inventory, and gold coin was the ONLY thing you could use to buy Heal potions, scrolls, ales, etc....what then?

Comparing rare, limited things to common, unlimited things, is comparing, as is said, apples to oranges. That, however, does not a label of flawed theory, make.

BTW, my No. 1 was the most important point.

[Merlaran]

That was pretty cool!

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Nicely wrapped up.

For economics in a game, EVE Online is the example that I often point toward.

[thids]

I agree fully with the sentiment that majority of high end gear should be available in shops. BG not only has a notoriously low level of magic in terms of equipment (which is fine), but obtaining that equipment can sometimes be a painful process. I have no problem with acquiring gold over time, but trying to loot specific items can get ridiculous.


Magical items, "uber" or not, are very much a core part of the Forgotten Realms setting. Roleplay quite often revolves around them, be it a piece of equipment or an ancient Netherese Scroll. Characters and NPC's in FR are often partially defined by their notable equipment.

[Mendoza]

I certainly don't blame someone for operating this way since the server rules allow it and in certain ways even encourages it.... But, the fact that the server economy allows individuals to do this speaks to how broken it is.

Role-play doesn't require cool things.

^^ This, so much this.

[Merlaran]

It would be a good way to get gold out of the economy at least, But you would want the price to still be higher then buying from a PC to encourage PC merchants.

[chad878262]

Well written and a fun read. Definitely agree epic items should be more readily available as currently there are many sitting unused, hoarded collecting dust... Crafting would have the largest impact imo

[Calodan]

Build more item vendors Karond! Shouldn't there be a premium "EPIC" item vendor Kraak? Or at least available in the outskirts area or something.........I agree though it is rather frustrating for those of us who do not have the mad skillz of Karond.

[maulofthetitans55]

Lmao that comic is amazing.

This server seems to have a huge problem with making tough decisions and the implementation of literally.....anything. I took a year long break recently and it's astounding how little has been changed and/or added since then. Once you are around awhile you realize the harsh truth that gold is almost without value on this server. That alone should spark desperate change but sadly it hasn't for years.

What usually happens is these great ideas and discussions just slowly die, forever suffocated under a mountain of backlogs and "will-never-be" patches. I suspect the issues are far deeper and debilitating then simply changing X or Y. When new players are still making characters around classes that don't even exist, like Warsling Sniper that shows a server sickness that needs to be addressed before any meaningful change can occur.