Comic: The Economic system and why Karond is so rich...

[chad878262]

Agree about the crafting, but trading stool requires you to obtain something of value...

If you want stool, you don't have to trade for it. Just pick some up at the nashkel foothills. It's everywhere!

Foiled by Swype yet again!

[NCrawler]

NPCs should be set to NOT drop their Equiped Gear, but instead, a random Loot from the RIG. Any DM or Dev making NPCs should know this.

It has happened a few times in the past, and a Player wound up with a +6 EB sword, or something. I would advise you to check in with the DM running that event to see if your found item is actually legal, else, you might just get it jacked and without compensation.

Yeah I will but I don't think there are any enchantments on either item that are illegal.

[Caelin]

I can not stress enough that your luck is uncanny and not the norm. In fact it is the exception. Finding such great items is incalculable and astronomical for everyone. You are clearly favored by the gods.

Heh, Garagos loves me! I think it just boils down to the fact that I can be on the server looting much more than the average person. I open a LOT of chests nearly every reset so the law of averages says that I will find something good occasionally. But my point still stands, you do not have to be an old timer or a several year veteran to get good trade goods. You just have to invest the time into looking for them. I agree that someone who only gets on the server for two or three hours per week will probably not find anything.

Let's be real buddy. You loot probably 50 or more chests every day. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that but it's almost a job for you. I could spend way more than 1-3 hours a week on the server and never have a realistic chance of finding any of the stuff you find because you're looting at a phenomenally high rate.

None of that is criticism, it just shows how the current system really just rewards powerlooting.

And to those who say "hey just copy Karond. *Everyone* can do what he does... there's two issues with that.

1) Not everyone ever finds that initial highly valued epic item to begin with. And secondly:
2) If *everyone* refuses to trade unless they get a deal that is at least slightly unfair in their favor, then *nobody* will ever trade.

I don't know why people keep saying that epic items in shops won't fix the problem. Of course it will. Gold will have real meaning again (ie there's a frame of reference for higher value items that isn't just related to direct trade for other epic items). Players will be able to buy items that are, if not exactly what they are looking for, then at least somewhat close.

This is Baldur's Gate we're talking about. A huge city. Why there isn't a merchant that sells basic +4 items at fair prices is beyond me. Just putting plain +4 armors, and amulets and boots available would go a LONG way to addressing the problem. No, it might not be the ideal item for my sneaky monk/assassin the way +4 boots with +3 hide/ms would be... but hey at least I can be *somewhat* on parity with that person who plays 40 hours a week and loots 400 chests in that time frame.

It's crazy that, from a RP standpoint, I'm more likely to find an epic item tucked away in a kobold cave than I am to find it in the merchant stalls of one of the biggest cities on Faerun. Who killed all the great blacksmiths and crafters?

[NCrawler]

Let's be real buddy. You loot probably 50 or more chests every day. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that but it's almost a job for you. I could spend way more than 1-3 hours a week on the server and never have a realistic chance of finding any of the stuff you find because you're looting at a phenomenally high rate.

Hey, don't sell me short. I loot WAY more than 50 chests per day. If I only get 50 chests per reset I feel as though I have failed Garagos.

[Steve]

It's crazy that, from a RP standpoint, I'm more likely to find an epic item tucked away in a ...

Is it not crazy that the most powerful magic items any of our Characters can wield—or should be wielding, legally—would be available for purchase at a Merchant, and...and infinite number of them?!? Just saying....

[maulofthetitans55]

Let's be real buddy. You loot probably 50 or more chests every day. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that but it's almost a job for you. I could spend way more than 1-3 hours a week on the server and never have a realistic chance of finding any of the stuff you find because you're looting at a phenomenally high rate.

None of that is criticism, it just shows how the current system really just rewards powerlooting.

NCrawler is the best of examples for why the loot system is so broken. He loots more then most of us can dream of and even HE doesn't have the Epic Bloodletter he's been looking for for months. Why? Because he's not a veteran and that's all that matters on this server.

It's not that epic merchants won't fix the problem, it's that it will take WAAAAY too long. You need to add a merchant for almost every conceivable item for veterans to start caring about gold again and that will take years to get through QC(bias can also come into play aka deny an epic item because it will lower the value of theirs). Or you could add a generous, high cost enchanting system and fix the problem in a single patch.

Either way it will take considerable effort from the staff but it doesn't look like a NWN2 replacement is coming along for years, if ever, so it's worth trying. This isn't bashing staff or being ungrateful, it's addressing glaring issues that many players have left over. The other side of the coin is that many servers and DM's would kill to have this many active players.

[mrieder79]

None of that is criticism, it just shows how the current system really just rewards powerlooting.

And to those who say "hey just copy Karond. *Everyone* can do what he does... there's two issues with that.

1) Not everyone ever finds that initial highly valued epic item to begin with. And secondly:
2) If *everyone* refuses to trade unless they get a deal that is at least slightly unfair in their favor, then *nobody* will ever trade.

I don't know why people keep saying that epic items in shops won't fix the problem. Of course it will. Gold will have real meaning again (ie there's a frame of reference for higher value items that isn't just related to direct trade for other epic items). Players will be able to buy items that are, if not exactly what they are looking for, then at least somewhat close.

This is Baldur's Gate we're talking about. A huge city. Why there isn't a merchant that sells basic +4 items at fair prices is beyond me. Just putting plain +4 armors, and amulets and boots available would go a LONG way to addressing the problem. No, it might not be the ideal item for my sneaky monk/assassin the way +4 boots with +3 hide/ms would be... but hey at least I can be *somewhat* on parity with that person who plays 40 hours a week and loots 400 chests in that time frame.

It's crazy that, from a RP standpoint, I'm more likely to find an epic item tucked away in a kobold cave than I am to find it in the merchant stalls of one of the biggest cities on Faerun. Who killed all the great blacksmiths and crafters?

Karond and I are working on shops. We are slowly exploring the introduction of higher level loot into server merchants. The QC team and DM team have advised that we take it slowly to measure the effect on the server. That being said, changes are being enacted and we are working that direction.

[thids]

It's crazy that, from a RP standpoint, I'm more likely to find an epic item tucked away in a ...

Is it not crazy that the most powerful magic items any of our Characters can wield—or should be wielding, legally—would be available for purchase at a Merchant, and...and infinite number of them?!? Just saying....

Considering the power of items on BG? It's not crazy by any means. As for the infinite part, crafting.

[Ithilan]

NCrawler is the best of examples for why the loot system is so broken. He loots more then most of us can dream of and even HE doesn't have the Epic Bloodletter he's been looking for for months. Why? Because he's not a veteran and that's all that matters on this server.

What? Veterans got all the good stuff? Wauv, I might have been absent for a while, but I wonder where this cache of goods that rightfully has my name on it is stored. Chill out man, it defeats the purpose of the rest of your post to generalise in this way.

It's not that epic merchants won't fix the problem, it's that it will take WAAAAY too long. You need to add a merchant for almost every conceivable item for veterans to start caring about gold again and that will take years to get through QC. Or you could add a generous, high cost enchanting system and fix the problem in a single patch.

Veteran players make new characters as well, without RCRing their former main and/or character concept. Usually you make a new character to play something different, whether it is for the RP or the build, it would in most cases mean you need appropriate gear for this character both for leveling but also for the late game ideal gear layout, this is costly, even for the rich. Have some faith in the QC and relax, they are doing this for free, you're not playing a subscription based MMO.

Either way it will take considerable effort from the staff but it doesn't look like a NWN2 replacement is coming along for years, if ever, so it's worth trying. This isn't bashing staff or being ungrateful, it's addressing glaring issues that many players have left over. The other side of the coin is that many servers and DM's would kill to have this many active players.

It sounds very ungrateful and I dont see what proposed solutions you come up with to adress this glaring issue as you call it. Have you considered that this server has so many active players for a good reason and why is this relevant in this topic?

[Steve]

Considering the power of items on BG? It's not crazy by any means. As for the infinite part, crafting.

Okay. What do you consider adequate power levels for PCs in the range of level 15, in D&D (pick your edition, but it should probably be 3.5e).

Right? Though our sheets might say level 30, we are supposed to consider—from a IC standpoint—to be level 15 (halving levels overall). That what is thrown around as such.

[grymhild]

Considering the power of items on BG? It's not crazy by any means. As for the infinite part, crafting.

Okay. What do you consider adequate power levels for PCs in the range of level 15, in D&D (pick your edition, but it should probably be 3.5e).

Right? Though our sheets might say level 30, we are supposed to consider—from a IC standpoint—to be level 15 (halving levels overall). That what is thrown around as such.

well, 15th level characters are not casting Gate spells... or True Resurrection ...

[Calodan]

I think finding more +3 EB AC with associated +3 Stats and Skills would be apt and proper for the merchants. Truly EPIC GEAR should still be reserved for DM Reward BUT.....there needs to be a system that sets clear guidelines for the reward. I like Dalelands and how they give RP tokens worth so much and so many tokens equal a DM reward from DM specific reward list. This is usually CUSTOM ENCHANTMENTS that equal up to ENDGAME gear. That would be my ideal world where we are not trying to eliminate the DM Item but find a way to r to make it more obtainable and give players a set bar to aim for. It would be easy. At the end of events the player chooses from GOLD, XP OR TOKEN and then DM goes about business. When said player gets enough tokens they contact DM team to pursue have an enchanment placed on a item of their choice.

[Ithilan]

Why is PnP always the refferance point? I think its rather sad if this is only acting as a PnP simulator to people, it is a video game, based of fractions of a ruleset for PnP yes, but people are using it like an argument that things are set in stone often and its rather sad in honesty.

Wouldnt it be better if we kept an open mind towards finding a middle ground between PnP the game and the majority's interest, rather than all the debating on old rules intended for a very different media, that by no means is flawless. Might be the wrong place for it, but it seems that every topic is haunted by the PnP Police.

[Steve]

Wouldnt it be better if we kept an open mind towards finding a middle ground between PnP the game and the majority's interest, rather than all the debating on old rules intended for a very different media, that by no means is flawless. Might be the wrong place for it, but it seems that every topic is haunted by the PnP Police.

Wouldn't it be better if we try and contrast changes/upgrades to some standard, a reference point, from which we can better envision the consequences of our actions?

Here is the deal: NWN2 mechanics are based of off 3.5e, which is PnP. Have you looked at how this is referenced on the NWN2 wiki, on every applicable page?

[maulofthetitans55]

What? Veterans got all the good stuff? Wauv, I might have been absent for a while, but I wonder where this cache of goods that rightfully has my name on it is stored. Chill out man, it defeats the purpose of the rest of your post to generalise in this way.

Not every veteran obviously.... However, most of the best gear is controlled by the same couple veterans, a fact Karond can confirm.

Veteran players make new characters as well, without RCRing their former main and/or character concept. Usually you make a new character to play something different, whether it is for the RP or the build, it would in most cases mean you need appropriate gear for this character both for leveling but also for the late game ideal gear layout, this is costly, even for the rich. Have some faith in the QC and relax, they are doing this for free, you're not playing a subscription based MMO.

You don't seem to understand how high end trade works on this server. When they make a new character they already have every item they want and if not they trade to make up the difference. This will only change when most high end epic items are on merchants, a process that will take too long to address. It's not a matter of faith it's a matter of history, single merchants have taken three months to add back when the server had far more staff members.

It sounds very ungrateful and I dont see what proposed solutions you come up with to adress this glaring issue as you call it. Have you considered that this server has so many active players for a good reason and why is this relevant in this topic?

I haven't proposed a solution? Please explain to us how enchanting doesn't add enormous value to gold?