DC Based Caster - Acceptable DC?

[ctothep]

Hello,

I am about to create a DC based caster focusing on illusion and enchantment spells mainly.

However i do have zero experience with such a character so i'd like to know what DC for the spells is acceptable?

I am currently playing around with a build that has a 38 DC on 9th lvl illusion spells. Is this acceptable? Or too low?

Thanks!

[Aelcar]

It's definitely ok, provided you know which enemies to hit and with what (example: when to use Spells allowing Will, Fort or Reflex save)

[Steve]

I had a 38 DC enchanter. It did rather well, dominating, mechanically. A lot of mobs in the mid to upper CR Areas have ridiculously high Will DCs, which are far from their stats from any Monster Manual, but are custom to BGTSCC. It can get pretty annoying that Hill Giants—not known for their brains—have such high Will saves...just as an example.

But Aelcar's is very much correct, in that with certain high DC toons, you have to be extra smart about where and when to use their gifts, cause otherwise, your toon will get stomped.

[Aelcar]

For your character, Steve, I would recommend to enervate the opponent to insure domination (Enervation/Emp. Enervation into Dominate spell, or Energy Drain if you feel flashy). You don't need to fear the drain, as three or four cheap long-term buffs will drastically bolster your creature's performance already (and you can add on top, if you wish).

When you have your long-term summon fully buffer, you add the dominated one with two spells and buff it with three more (4/5 of these are low circle slots, with only the Dominate spell being a 9th circle one), you can just limit yourself to control the situation with the occasional Sunburst, Hiss of Sleep, Bigby, Mass Blindness/Deafness, Solipsism or whatever suits the situation.

DC casters are good character with a pretty high skill ceiling compared to this game's difficulty level. Powerful, but far from being overpowered. Those who claim otherwise never played one, and they would cry themselves to sleep if they ever were to try.

[ctothep]

Thanks for the answers!

Playing around a bit more i think i stumbled upon a bug. Perhaps it is intentional though, i don't know.

The character has the epic spell focus: illusion feat, aswell as 10 levels of the shadow adept prestige class. This means he is supposed to get +6 to the spell DC's for the illusion spell school (+3 epic spell focus, +3 shadow adept PRC), aswell as +3 to enchantment and necromancy schools (shadow adept PRC).

However it seems the spell focus feats and the shadow adept feat do not stack? The spell DC for the phantasmal killer (lvl 4 illusion spell) is at 33, while the finger of death (lvl 7 necro spell) has a DC of 36. Both of them should be at the same DC though, since i do get +6 to illusion spells while only +3 to necromancy spells, or am i missing something?

Perhaps a bugs of the JEGS module?

[V'rass]

At minimum you want a end spell dc of 32 for the spells you use the most. I have found that to be a good solid number and it will own most mobs up to lv 20 and still sometimes affect mobs above 20. Higher then 32 is however much better with 40 prob being the max you can get. The holy grail of dc is 50 but with the server currently set up as it is attaining that is effectively impossible. 40 is your best bet, 32 at the least.

[ctothep]

Thanks for the answers!

Playing around a bit more i think i stumbled upon a bug. Perhaps it is intentional though, i don't know.

The character has the epic spell focus: illusion feat, aswell as 10 levels of the shadow adept prestige class. This means he is supposed to get +6 to the spell DC's for the illusion spell school (+3 epic spell focus, +3 shadow adept PRC), aswell as +3 to enchantment and necromancy schools (shadow adept PRC).

However it seems the spell focus feats and the shadow adept feat do not stack? The spell DC for the phantasmal killer (lvl 4 illusion spell) is at 33, while the finger of death (lvl 7 necro spell) has a DC of 36. Both of them should be at the same DC though, since i do get +6 to illusion spells while only +3 to necromancy spells, or am i missing something?

Perhaps a bugs of the JEGS module?

I've slightly changed the build that i have and took out the three illusion spell focus feats. So compared to my regular build the phantasmal killer should have 3 less DC while the finger of death DC should stay the same. Turned out that both of the schools now have 3 less DC... as if the illusion spell focus feats would affect necromancy spells aswell when taken together with the Shadow Adept PRC.

It seems this type of stuff is a bit wonky... atleast in my JEGS version...

Perhaps anyone knows a bit more? I would be very interested in how this works together on the actual server.

[mrm3ntalist]

It seems this type of stuff is a bit wonky... atleast in my JEGS version...

Perhaps anyone knows a bit more? I would be very interested in how this works together on the actual server.

I play a shadow adept and the DCs work as they should.

Maybe something does not work correctly in the jegs module. I remember there was a similar issue with archmage.

[Aelcar]

At minimum you want a end spell dc of 32 for the spells you use the most. I have found that to be a good solid number and it will own most mobs up to lv 20 and still sometimes affect mobs above 20. Higher then 32 is however much better with 40 prob being the max you can get. The holy grail of dc is 50 but with the server currently set up as it is attaining that is effectively impossible. 40 is your best bet, 32 at the least.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean.

If the message is, "endgame DC 32 for 9th Circle spells is good", then it's wrong. That would be good for a Warlock, when you can afford to try again for control effects. A DC based Wizard needs 37-38 DC for his favourite 9th Circle spells as the bare minimum (lower is still playable, but you have to make do with a bad character).

You can also go well above DC 40. An arcanist with DC 44, for instance, is not unheard of, although it's obviously overdone and overly squishy. In this game, your weakest point is just how weak you are. Building a high DC mage with no defensive resources, low AC, low HP and low saves obviously means you can get instagibbed on dispels, which is hardly conducive of good play since everyone and their grandma have breaches, and on BGTSCC everything is on the breach list (yes, even Shades) .

[Karond]

which is hardly conducive of good play since everyone and their grandma have breaches, and on BGTSCC everything is on the breach list (yes, even Shades) .

I know right? They're all like:

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I would aim for at least 30+spell level in your chosen school for a DC wizard. Personally, if I was playing one I would go all the way on the DC. The reason is that sorcerers or HIPS wizards etc generally make ideal blasters, so if you're going the DC route just make that your thing. This means no arcane scholar or such, since for the most part you won't actually be casting damage spells. You should be casting hold, buffing or save or else spells.

Shadow Adept is of course fantastic, particularly for your two schools. If you feel like being cheesy, I would aim for 15 wizard, 4 Archmage, 8 Bloodmage and 3 Shadow Adept, ending with 34+level in all shadow adept schools.

One could also do 11 Wizard, 6 Archmage, 3 Palemaster, 10 Shadow Adept for 33+level in two of those schools, 35 in another. You can bump that to 36+level with a gnome and illusion focus, at a -1 DC to the other schools. If you don't want to explot PSC, maybe 16 wizard, 4 archmage, 10 shadow adept, for a 34+level in two schools, 33+level in the third.

Without Shadow Adept, PSC abuse is very helpful, for Archmage, Bloodmage, Wizard combos, or if you really want to handicap yourself and forego that, maybe 10 Wizard, 10 Palemaster, 10 Archmage, or 20 Wizard, 10 Archmage for an extra DC over the palemaster version. They should end up at around 32+level in one or two schools.

Either way, point being is that you fill a niche not as a blaster but as a controller. You're far more powerful and a much bigger contributor to party play as a DC wizard, and while your PvP power might not be as good, you're still a high CL arcanist so you're no pushover either way. For solo play, minions and gathering several spawns to one location and then kill them is pretty efficient. Particularly with spells like wall of fire, running back and forth, which the blasters can't typically afford. Don't try to be both, as that will make you mediocre at both.

[V'rass]

When i say 32 is good for endgame i mean for pve... player characters would have saves so massive you would need 35-40 to affect them. 32 is good for mobs, for pvp you want much more.

[Aelcar]

When i say 32 is good for endgame i mean for pve... player characters would have saves so massive you would need 35-40 to affect them. 32 is good for mobs, for pvp you want much more.

Both me and Karond are talking about PvE right now. 38-40+ DC is what you want to have.

For PvP, any and all save or else are useless against so many characters that I don't recommend their use unless the arcanist is very experienced, and knows what can work and how to make it work (and even in this case, it's far too easy to counter and you'd be dead way before that against strong opposition).

The only character types you can reliably kill with save or die spells are sneaks.

[V'rass]

That is odd then... i tested several dc builds with 32 dc max in the jegs module and owned just about everything except epic mobs.?

[Aelcar]

That is odd then... i tested several dc builds with 32 dc max in the jegs module and owned just about everything except epic mobs.?

If by "owned" you mean you've got 50% chance of success, and you need your entire spellbook to kill three or four waves of non-epic enemies (so...what, 300 XP?), then sure .

I tend to play a tad more reliably than that .

[V'rass]

I mean owned as in killing high lv mobs within a few seconds over and over again and having spells to spare. Its easy to win when you know what spells to use, when to use them, and what to combine them with to achieve maximum carnage. I can beat most things up to lv 20 and still win about half the time against epics which is not great true but not bad either. Only things I can't beat are those uber mobs who were put in as a joke since only the greatest power-builder's have any hope of defeating them. Like that frigging Monty Python ripoff death rabbit lol. Whoever put that in should be shot.