Daggerspell Mage help needed

[Heimdallr]

Hello! I was wondering bout daggerspell mage. Is that Class good? How does it work on warlock? and a sorcerer? what spells as a sorc to have? anyone got any detailed guide for it from warlock or sorc? tips, tricks?;]

[Eclypticon]

Dagger spell mage works great with warlocks and sorcerers. I usually advise going full perfect two weapon fighting and dipping shadow dancer. As of now, to take eldritch master, you need to take it on a warlock level. Turns out EM is available on dagger spell mage, but my example is a very playable build provided you have plenty of sneak gear. Here it is: http://nwn2db.com/build/?130004

If you like, you can drop bluff and sleight of hand for disable device and pick lock.

[freekender]

I agree with Eclypticon. DsM works wonderful with warlock, and is very fun to RP. The build I'm playing differs a bit of Ecypticon's. It is a drow and has 3 levels of Bodyguard instead of the Rogue ones in order to qualify for DsM (recently RCRed my char, to change the lvls of Rogue to Bodyguard), it has +1 BAB and some extra funny goodies, although it is a bit more difficult to level up in the first levels. You only loose 1d6 of sneak attack and some skill points, as Evasion is granted by the Shadowdancer class. It has some other differences too, but the general idea is the same. I strongly recommend you to try this class, I'm enjoying it a lot.

About combining with sorcerers... I haven't tried it, but I think people tend to combine DsM more with Wizard + Arcane Trickster. I'm not sure about, maybe other player can help you better with this combo or you can make some I+D+i searching in the builder.

To finalize, one thing I think is a must. Whatever is the combination you take, go for HiPS (easiest way is Shadowdancer, although I know of some Assassin builds as well). As I said you, I'm playing a Warlock-DsM and, although I could go invisible with Walk Unseen (and an invocation can be casted infinite times), I assure you that the build takes a giant step the moment it starts going invisible with HiPS.

[Heimdallr]

How does the dagger cast work exactly? When I have it I use any of touch spells and it auto adds my dagger bonuses?

[illithid]

Daggercast lvl 1 = add main hand dagger damage to melee touch attacks = 1d4 (base dagger damage) + enhancement bonus (i.e. upto +5 on BG)

Double Daggercast lvl 5 = add both hands dagger damage to melee touch attacks = 2d4 (base dagger damage's) + enhancement bonus (right) + enhancement bonus (left)

Arcane Throw (right) lvl 4 = add main hand dagger damage to ranged touch attacks = 1d4 (base dagger damage) + enhancement bonus (i.e. upto +5 on BG)

Arcane Throw (both) lvl 8 = add both hand dagger damage to ranged touch attacks = 2d4 (base dagger damage's) + enhancement bonus (right) + enhancement bonus (left)

[PJtheFey]

Daggercast lvl 1 = add main hand dagger damage to melee touch attacks = 1d4 (base dagger damage) + enhancement bonus (i.e. upto +5 on BG)

Double Daggercast lvl 5 = add both hands dagger damage to melee touch attacks = 2d4 (base dagger damage's) + enhancement bonus (right) + enhancement bonus (left)

Arcane Throw (right) lvl 4 = add main hand dagger damage to ranged touch attacks = 1d4 (base dagger damage) + enhancement bonus (i.e. upto +5 on BG)

Arcane Throw (both) lvl 8 = add both hand dagger damage to ranged touch attacks = 2d4 (base dagger damage's) + enhancement bonus (right) + enhancement bonus (left)

This post above is correct.

How does the dagger cast work exactly? When I have it I use any of touch spells and it auto adds my dagger bonuses?

I was a little disappointed after taking DSM levels because I was a noob and misread "enhancement bonus" as "enchantment bonus" which made the damage quite a bit less than I expected. I was thinking that if I had a dagger that did 1d6 or 1d4 elemental damage it would also be added to my touch attacks and ranged touch attacks, but no luck.

Basically what you get when the class is maxed out is up to up to 10+2d4 extra damage on your melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks if you have +5 EB daggers, 3d6 sneak attack damage, and 9 caster level progression.

IMO it's basically diet Arcane Trickster, without the benefit of being able to add sneak attack damage to TAs and RTAs. The two classes combined are decent together, but I wouldn't consider taking DSM without AT.


There are a couple of melee perks like improved two weapon fighting and arcane infusion, but honestly my sorcerers/wizards don't tend to be melee combatants, and if they are they use bigger weapons than daggers.

[freekender]

I was a little disappointed after taking DSM levels because I was a noob and misread "enhancement bonus" as "enchantment bonus" which made the damage quite a bit less than I expected. I was thinking that if I had a dagger that did 1d6 or 1d4 elemental damage it would also be added to my touch attacks and ranged touch attacks, but no luck.

Basically what you get when the class is maxed out is up to up to 10+2d4 extra damage on your melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks if you have +5 EB daggers, 3d6 sneak attack damage, and 9 caster level progression.

IMO it's basically diet Arcane Trickster, without the benefit of being able to add sneak attack damage to TAs and RTAs. The two classes combined are decent together, but I wouldn't consider taking DSM without AT.


There are a couple of melee perks like improved two weapon fighting and arcane infusion, but honestly my sorcerers/wizards don't tend to be melee combatants, and if they are they use bigger weapons than daggers.

With all my respect PJ, I slightly disagree. I disagree IF combined with Warlock. I'm currently playing a Warlock DsM and the combo HiPS + Sneak Attack + Hideows Blow (which here reapplies every round without needing of casting) is just devastating. I misread the description too, but the damage added when blasting is noticeable. I don't know if the class alone would be playable with Wizard or Sorcerer, but I suppose AT will make it stronger.

[PJtheFey]

With all my respect PJ, I slightly disagree. I disagree IF combined with Warlock. I'm currently playing a Warlock DsM and the combo HiPS + Sneak Attack + Hideows Blow (which here reapplies every round without needing of casting) is just devastating. I misread the description too, but the damage added when blasting is noticeable. I don't know if the class alone would be playable with Wizard or Sorcerer, but I suppose AT will make it stronger.

That's fair, I've never played a Warlock so I can't comment on the class. My only experience with it is with a Wizard which is similar enough to sorcerer that I suspect the experience would be rather similar. It's okay, but as I said, it only really works with any build I've tried if you also have Arcane Trickster.

[Lockonnow]

how do you RP DsM

[illithid]

Daggerspell Guardians
Exotic spellcasters who wield matched pairs of daggers and deadly magical powers, the Daggerspell Guardians use their varied abilities to promote their own fair-minded sense of justice. Individual members lead adventuring parties, root out evil hiding in civilized communities, and act as self-appointed investigators and law enforcers when necessary. Groups rarely act together and instead concentrate on training new members, researching new spells, or perfecting new aspects of their unusual fighting style. One of the most interesting aspects of the Daggerspell Guardians is their emphasis on both martial and magical power. Although they still focus on spellcasting as their primary means of dealing with foes, they all wield their twin daggers with surprising skill. Some use their spells to enhance their physical abilities and then enter melee, casting amid a whirlwind of flashing knives. Others use their spells to bring down foes and reveal their deadly sets of knives only when an enemy seeks to target a spellcaster who might look physically weak.

Two spellcasting prestige classes are associated with the guild. The daggerspell shapers appeal to druids and other divine spellcasters, and the daggerspell mages appeal to wizards and other arcane spellcasters. These two groups within the organization are separate only in the type of spells they cast and the training they undergo. In all other aspects, the two hold equal sway and numbers within the organization.

Joining the Daggerspell Guardians: The Daggerspell Guardians have never been large in number, and although they always look for new members, they take only a small percentage of those who wish to join. Although candidates need not be of a high enough level to join one of the daggerspell prestige classes, they usually need some spellcasting ability, a Dexterity score high enough to eventually train in using two weapons at once, and most important, a sincere and compassionate drive to do good. Those hoping to join the guild must find a sponsor—usually an existing member of the guild, but other noted good-aligned adventurers or community leaders occasionally sponsor members as well - and petition the guild leadership for membership. The leadership usually sends a representative to talk with the candidate and measure her abilities. Once accepted, a candidate usually receives training from another member of the Daggerspell Guardians.

Character Benefits: Characters who belong to the Daggerspell Guardians find that opinions vary greatly about their activities and the organization to which they belong. In many places, a member receives a small (typically 5%) discount on mundane services such as lodging and food, as long as she makes it known that she belongs to the guild. On the other hand, some local rulers don't enjoy the idea of a group of powerful warrior-spellcasters roaming through the realm and following their own moral code, however noble their purpose. These rulers, and those who serve them, have been known to turn a cold shoulder to a Guardian's requests and to devise other subtle means of encouraging her to continue her travels in another realm.

Many communities welcome the arrival of a Guardian, but they are also likely to approach her with requests for assistance. Whether the area is beset by a powerful bugbear tribe or one farmer claims that another has infringed on his fields, a guardian is someone outside the immediate community who can provide help and judgment.

Roleplaying Suggestions: Most Daggerspell Guardians are calm and reserved. While they are confident in their ability to decide between right and wrong, they hold their judgment, in part to gauge the reactions of others and to better learn about their adventuring companions. They also do it to ensure that they make a correct assessment of the situation. In most roleplaying situations, a member should ask more questions than she answers and keep her opinions to herself until asked. Another good approach to roleplaying a Guardian is to emphasize her caution when dealing with other people without letting this devolve into outright suspicion.

Typical Member: The typical Daggerspell Guardian is a low-level druid or wizard who has made the unorthodox choice of learning to fight with two weapons - specifically, two daggers. After she has finished her apprenticeship, a member often joins a group of adventurers. The guild encourages members to fight against evil actively, discover lost treasures or wells of power, and work diligently to oppose monstrous creatures that threaten civilized areas. When not adventuring, a typical member lives off the proceeds of past adventures, although a few find work in law enforcement or as special investigators in communities where crime is a problem. Because they are so focused on spellcasting, Guardians often spend time with other guild members, learning more advanced spells or practicing their fighting techniques.

Prestige Classes: Most members of the Daggerspell Guardians aspire to become either daggerspell shapers or daggerspell mages, depending on whether they have an affinity for divine or arcane magic. Members of the daggerspell prestige classes are afforded special respect in the guild, and even those with little spellcasting ability see themselves on the path to entering one of the prestige classes. The highest-ranking members have levels in one of the two daggerspell classes, but powerful and influential members of other classes have forged lasting alliances with the Guardians without taking levels in either prestige class or formally becoming members of the organization.

Lore of the Guild: Many of the greatest treasures of the Daggerspell Guardians are, not surprisingly, pairs of matched magic daggers of great power. Two of the most treasured of these daggers, the emerald knives of seven truths, were lost years ago by a daggerspell shaper who fell in battle against a powerful vampire named Malkan Ry-Ul. Both the knives and the vampire have been missing for many years, but recently travelers from the east have reported that a great city there is haunted by a killer who leaves strange green cuts on the bodies of his victims - a signature side effect of the magic of the emerald knives.

A Daggerspell Campaign: A campaign centering on the Daggerspell Guardians need include only one or two PCs who belong to the guild. Members often adventure with nonmembers, and the group's activities provide an excellent set of hooks for good characters of any class. Because the guild believes in very lofty and open versions of good and justice, a campaign focused on the Daggerspell Guardians should include adventures that deal with subtle moral problems and emphasize that the characters form their own definition of the word "good." A mix of dungeon adventuring and political intrigue is the perfect blend for a group affiliated with the guild.

[freekender]

Hidden: show

Daggerspell Guardians
Exotic spellcasters who wield matched pairs of daggers and deadly magical powers, the Daggerspell Guardians use their varied abilities to promote their own fair-minded sense of justice. Individual members lead adventuring parties, root out evil hiding in civilized communities, and act as self-appointed investigators and law enforcers when necessary. Groups rarely act together and instead concentrate on training new members, researching new spells, or perfecting new aspects of their unusual fighting style. One of the most interesting aspects of the Daggerspell Guardians is their emphasis on both martial and magical power. Although they still focus on spellcasting as their primary means of dealing with foes, they all wield their twin daggers with surprising skill. Some use their spells to enhance their physical abilities and then enter melee, casting amid a whirlwind of flashing knives. Others use their spells to bring down foes and reveal their deadly sets of knives only when an enemy seeks to target a spellcaster who might look physically weak.

Two spellcasting prestige classes are associated with the guild. The daggerspell shapers appeal to druids and other divine spellcasters, and the daggerspell mages appeal to wizards and other arcane spellcasters. These two groups within the organization are separate only in the type of spells they cast and the training they undergo. In all other aspects, the two hold equal sway and numbers within the organization.

Joining the Daggerspell Guardians: The Daggerspell Guardians have never been large in number, and although they always look for new members, they take only a small percentage of those who wish to join. Although candidates need not be of a high enough level to join one of the daggerspell prestige classes, they usually need some spellcasting ability, a Dexterity score high enough to eventually train in using two weapons at once, and most important, a sincere and compassionate drive to do good. Those hoping to join the guild must find a sponsor—usually an existing member of the guild, but other noted good-aligned adventurers or community leaders occasionally sponsor members as well - and petition the guild leadership for membership. The leadership usually sends a representative to talk with the candidate and measure her abilities. Once accepted, a candidate usually receives training from another member of the Daggerspell Guardians.

Character Benefits: Characters who belong to the Daggerspell Guardians find that opinions vary greatly about their activities and the organization to which they belong. In many places, a member receives a small (typically 5%) discount on mundane services such as lodging and food, as long as she makes it known that she belongs to the guild. On the other hand, some local rulers don't enjoy the idea of a group of powerful warrior-spellcasters roaming through the realm and following their own moral code, however noble their purpose. These rulers, and those who serve them, have been known to turn a cold shoulder to a Guardian's requests and to devise other subtle means of encouraging her to continue her travels in another realm.

Many communities welcome the arrival of a Guardian, but they are also likely to approach her with requests for assistance. Whether the area is beset by a powerful bugbear tribe or one farmer claims that another has infringed on his fields, a guardian is someone outside the immediate community who can provide help and judgment.

Roleplaying Suggestions: Most Daggerspell Guardians are calm and reserved. While they are confident in their ability to decide between right and wrong, they hold their judgment, in part to gauge the reactions of others and to better learn about their adventuring companions. They also do it to ensure that they make a correct assessment of the situation. In most roleplaying situations, a member should ask more questions than she answers and keep her opinions to herself until asked. Another good approach to roleplaying a Guardian is to emphasize her caution when dealing with other people without letting this devolve into outright suspicion.

Typical Member: The typical Daggerspell Guardian is a low-level druid or wizard who has made the unorthodox choice of learning to fight with two weapons - specifically, two daggers. After she has finished her apprenticeship, a member often joins a group of adventurers. The guild encourages members to fight against evil actively, discover lost treasures or wells of power, and work diligently to oppose monstrous creatures that threaten civilized areas. When not adventuring, a typical member lives off the proceeds of past adventures, although a few find work in law enforcement or as special investigators in communities where crime is a problem. Because they are so focused on spellcasting, Guardians often spend time with other guild members, learning more advanced spells or practicing their fighting techniques.

Prestige Classes: Most members of the Daggerspell Guardians aspire to become either daggerspell shapers or daggerspell mages, depending on whether they have an affinity for divine or arcane magic. Members of the daggerspell prestige classes are afforded special respect in the guild, and even those with little spellcasting ability see themselves on the path to entering one of the prestige classes. The highest-ranking members have levels in one of the two daggerspell classes, but powerful and influential members of other classes have forged lasting alliances with the Guardians without taking levels in either prestige class or formally becoming members of the organization.

Lore of the Guild: Many of the greatest treasures of the Daggerspell Guardians are, not surprisingly, pairs of matched magic daggers of great power. Two of the most treasured of these daggers, the emerald knives of seven truths, were lost years ago by a daggerspell shaper who fell in battle against a powerful vampire named Malkan Ry-Ul. Both the knives and the vampire have been missing for many years, but recently travelers from the east have reported that a great city there is haunted by a killer who leaves strange green cuts on the bodies of his victims - a signature side effect of the magic of the emerald knives.

A Daggerspell Campaign: A campaign centering on the Daggerspell Guardians need include only one or two PCs who belong to the guild. Members often adventure with nonmembers, and the group's activities provide an excellent set of hooks for good characters of any class. Because the guild believes in very lofty and open versions of good and justice, a campaign focused on the Daggerspell Guardians should include adventures that deal with subtle moral problems and emphasize that the characters form their own definition of the word "good." A mix of dungeon adventuring and political intrigue is the perfect blend for a group affiliated with the guild.

Very good info illithid. Just curiosity... where did you it take from?

how do you RP DsM

The following are totally personal snowflakes...

My DsM-Warlock drow Uelareene began as a kind, shy and naïve char. I think that being a Warlock itself (or Wizard or Sorcerer), makes a char more confident about himself/herself, and so, she is not shy anymore. Well, living in a drow society doesn't help to improve kindness, but the reactions of non-magic users towards an arcanist (many times respect, distrust or even fear), put its load of arrogance into the personality (more if you are a drow lol).

The other side of a DsM is that (s)he uses the "shadows", (s)he is a sneaker. So this adds even more distrust in the way people tend to see him/her. The combination of these two aspects makes, as the info illithid added says, to have a personal moral conduct. A very personal way and well defined (chaotic chars fits perfectly IMO). They are reserved, but at the same time confident it theirselves (maybe arrongant too).

As I said, this is a personal view, but I think the general aspects of the class guides the personality to a "base". Other types of behaviours could fit the RP, this is as personal as the player behind a char wants to.

I hope this helps you to answer the question Lockonnow.

[Lockonnow]

why will you weak the warlock power that is a pack wizard freekender?

[freekender]

why will you weak the warlock power that is a pack wizard freekender?

I have played a full warlock too and, in my opinion the DgM class doesn't weak it. At least in this server, because of the change in Hideows Blow. Even with Kaedrin's it has to be recasted to charge it again; but not here, it automatically reapplies every round.

The point is that you start playing a warlock in the low levels. But at the end, your char becomes a backstabber or feinter with dark or fey powers depending on the pact. It's true that it doesn't match the "raw" power of a pure Warlock, but IMO it's not weaker, just a different playstile. It's a bit harder leveling and playstile (not weaker), but versatile, because you can still blast things and have a different role depending on the party. I personally find the build more fun, but one man's meat is another man's poison (in Spain we say for tastes the colors lol).

[illithid]

Very good info illithid. Just curiosity... where did you it take from?

http://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/organ ... pell.shtml

[Heimdallr]

Thanks all for replies it helped me a lot:) I still got a question about build. I saw a good one that was a 4 rogue/8warlock/10daggerspell/8assasin. It had a Practiced Invoker feat.
What that exactly does? I mean I tossed it away and...nothing happend. Still can use Dark invocations, still got 8d6 blast. http://nwn2db.com/build/?233753 this is the build, it got 1 feat spot not taken(no idea what to get). What would you change here to work fine on this server? also what about that practiced invoker?