The Wall of the Faithless

[Arn]

• "Everyone in Faerun knows that those who die without a patron deity to send a servant to collect them from the Fugue Plane at their death spend eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless or disappear into the hells of the devils or the infernos of the demons."
  -FRCS, page 232
• "All of the Faithless receive the same punishment: They form a living wall around the City of Judgment, held together by a supernatural greenish mold. This mold prevents them from escaping the wall and eventually breaks down their substance until the soul and its consciousness are dissolved."
  -FRCS, page 259 (emphasis added)

So according to page 232, most people think the Faithless writhe in the Wall for eternity, but page 259 makes it clear that is not quite true.

Can a monk of the Old Order, which does not worship any deity, RP knowledge of the mold dissolving the soul and consciousness of the Faithless, or would that be metagaming because of page 232? This issue would seem quite pertinent to the Old Order, since most of them are Faithless by definition.

[DM Ioulaum]

The wall of the Faithless has existed for a relatively long time but there are liches and Elves who lived in a time when it did not. The wall was created by the deity of the Dead: Myrkul sometime after he ascended and replaced Jergal.

At this time the existence of the wall is not well known in Faerun. Its existence only becomes commonly known (as doctrine) during and after the Time of Troubles, when Ao thrusts all Gods to the earth to walk there in their mortal form. As punishment for stealing the Tablets of Fate (For us that moment is still in the future, if it ever comes to pass).

Knowledge of the wall of the faithless is often met with skepticism, and not even all clergy are aware of its existence. Some Churches do not formally teach its existence through their doctrine because they haven't established internally how to reconcile it with their Deity's teachings. The Church of Myrkul openly and accurately teaches its existence (but isn't considered very trustworthy).

In particular the church of Tyr is divided on it, as it stands in as an affront to Tyr's ideals, while most other Churches acknowledge it in some form through allegory, or vague tales meant to inspire virtue and wisdom. There are also those Churches who try to use the wall or similar stories to acquire converts: with fear and intimidation (Talos, Bhaal, Bane, Myrkul, Talona, Beshaba etc..).

Whether or not a particular order of Monks puts stock in the tales of Myrkul's Church, or the teachings of other Churches, depends on the individual NPCs. Most wouldn't, but during their spriritual growth they would eventually sense (a vague impression depending on their wisdom score) what shape their fate is, without a Deity, as well as what it might be with a Deity. Which isn't necessarily more agreeable.

[Hoihe]

The wall of the Faithless has existed for a relatively long time but there are liches and Elves who lived in a time when it did not. The wall was created by the deity of the Dead: Myrkul sometime after he ascended and replaced Jergal.

At this time the existence of the wall is not well known in Faerun. Its existence only becomes commonly known (as doctrine) during and after the Time of Troubles, when Ao thrusts all Gods to the earth to walk there in their mortal form. As punishment for stealing the Tablets of Fate (For us that moment is still in the future, if it ever comes to pass).

Knowledge of the wall of the faithless is often met with skepticism, and not even all clergy are aware of its existence. Some Churches do not formally teach its existence through their doctrine because they haven't established internally how to reconcile it with their Deity's teachings. The Church of Myrkul openly and accurately teaches its existence (but isn't considered very trustworthy).

In particular the church of Tyr is divided on it, as it stands in as an affront to Tyr's ideals, while most other Churches acknowledge it in some form through allegory, or vague tales meant to inspire virtue and wisdom. There are also those Churches who try to use the wall or similar stories to acquire converts: with fear and intimidation (Talos, Bhaal, Bane, Myrkul, Talona, Beshaba etc..).

Whether or not a particular order of Monks puts stock in the tales of Myrkul's Church, or the teachings of other Churches, depends on the individual NPCs. Most wouldn't, but during their spriritual growth they would eventually sense (a vague impression depending on their wisdom score) what shape their fate is, without a Deity, as well as what it might be with a Deity. Which isn't necessarily more agreeable.

How would other races' clergy approach the Wall of Faithless?

[Arn]

At this time the existence of the wall is not well known in Faerun.

. . .

Whether or not a particular order of Monks puts stock in the tales of Myrkul's Church, or the teachings of other Churches, depends on the individual NPCs. Most wouldn't, but during their spriritual growth they would eventually sense (a vague impression depending on their wisdom score) what shape their fate is, without a Deity, as well as what it might be with a Deity. Which isn't necessarily more agreeable.

Excellent, thank you. So as far as my character is concerned, he can (and indeed probably should) be ignorant of the Wall. That answers my question about how to RP this issue.

As far as the vague impression goes, would it be safe for a monk with 39 wisdom (when buffed) to get an impression of a gradual non-existence?

[DM Ioulaum]

At this time the existence of the wall is not well known in Faerun.

. . .

Whether or not a particular order of Monks puts stock in the tales of Myrkul's Church, or the teachings of other Churches, depends on the individual NPCs. Most wouldn't, but during their spriritual growth they would eventually sense (a vague impression depending on their wisdom score) what shape their fate is, without a Deity, as well as what it might be with a Deity. Which isn't necessarily more agreeable.

Excellent, thank you. So as far as my character is concerned, he can (and indeed probably should) be ignorant of the Wall. That answers my question about how to RP this issue.

As far as the vague impression goes, would it be safe for a monk with 39 wisdom (when buffed) to get an impression of a gradual non-existence?

A monk would over a course of many years find hints that there is a transformation of conciousness after death. What shape and form he cannot fathom. He would find a similar transformation occurs for most worshippers of deities, but it is a different transformation.

He may or may not know legends of monks who were able to transform through mastery of the self, gaining the ability to reincarnate, or in some cases live forever. He would not personally know such a person, nor would any regional NPC. But the legends are taught within most independant monasteries. Especially those influenced by the traditions of far away Shou Lung and Kara Tur.

[DM Ioulaum]

How would other races' clergy approach the Wall of Faithless?

In principle all souls of the dead from Toril gather on the Fugue plane. The only exception to this rule are those souls who perish under the influence of another deity of the Dead.

On Toril there are two deities of the dead (Portfolio: The Dead).

The Greater deity of death, who's influence covers most of Toril, is Myrkul. People who die under his influence pass to the City of Judgement and the wall of the of the Faithless, or they are collected by their gods, or they may bargain with devils (not with demons). Faerun is a part of Toril that falls entirely within Myrkul's influence.

Hidden: show

Many Elves retire to Evermeet and the realm of the Fey before they die a natural death. Myrkul holds no sway there, but the Seelie and Unseelie Court do.

The second deity of death on Toril is Osiris, an intermediate deity whose influence covers the far East of Toril: Mulhorhand, Unther, Thay, Deep Imaskar, and parts of Chessenta. Deceased souls travel to the 'land of the dead' where they must face a number of trials and seductions before their heart is weighed by Osiris in judgement. Devils and other deities can 'steal' souls through the trials.

A third source of influence is a consortium of deities and immortals from Kara-Tur. People who die under their influence pass to the great wheel, on their way to the Celestial Bureaucracy and other demi-planes, depending on their religious-group and life choices. Devils can bargain with souls in this case as well.


Certainly the legends and myths of the City of the Dead, the wall of the faithless, the Mulhorandi Land of the Dead, and the great wheel may inspire people to make different life choices, and come under the influence of a different after-life.

If someone from Mulhorand comes to adopt the views on the dead held in Cormyr out of fear for the wall of the faithless then they have passed to Myrkul's influence. Their god would have to collect them from the Fugue. This means that Osiris denies and counters rumors concerning the wall of the faithless being in store for the dead (under his influence). He tells them they will face trials and be judged: they had better live well and prepare.

So other pantheons interact with Myrkul on an as-needed basis. Someone under the influence of Osiris can travel to Faerun and perish there, still ending up in the Mulhorandi land of the dead. Whether a mortal is under the influence of one deity or another depends on what beliefs and culture they internalized. Usually as a child, it doesn't require an act of faith. But faith in a specific deity of the dead certainly counts as influence if an individual has such a patron deity.

It is hard to convert most people from their culture, pantheon, society, and rituals. For that reason there is only a very cold and pragmatic rivalry between the the different realms of the dead. Shifts occur as culture spreads or declines and individuals find it hard to cling to an exotic belief far from the temples of their Gods and people.

A common theme is that death heralds a transformation, and that life is a preparation for that transformation.

[Hoihe]

The clergy of Sehanine has a ritual after someone dies before their time to 'guide' the soul to safety. During this period her clerics develop a glowing moonbow for their iris and become extremely empathethic to the deceased person.

What is happening here? Are they giving protection to the soul on the Fugue plane from devils' influence and demons' raids?

[DM Ioulaum]

The clergy of Sehanine has a ritual after someone dies before their time to 'guide' the soul to safety. During this period her clerics develop a glowing moonbow for their iris and become extremely empathethic to the deceased person.

What is happening here? Are they giving protection to the soul on the Fugue plane from devils' influence and demons' raids?

If a person dies before their time it is possible for their Souls to linger on Toril, clinging to their previous life. In rare cases this can even lead to possessions and hauntings. Particularly if the deceased had unfinished business, or died in a very traumatic event (before their time). Putting the dead soul to rest is an important ritual, as emphasized by the Church of Myrkul. Other Churches have their own rituals, serving that same purpose.

Communing with the deceased soul on the Fugue plane is possible through other rituals. But it is considered an intervention in the natural process of death. Deities do not allow their faithful power for such deeds unless it serves a purpose significant to that Deity.

Myrkul frowns on deities who intervene in such a fashion and usually attempts to thwart it, or negotiate. Given that the Fugue is Myrkul's realm other deities often opt to negotiate, or employ subterfuge by entrusting messages to other dying faithful in exchange for leniency. In rare cases a council of Deities orders Myrkul to comply.

Not disturbing souls as they enter the afterlife is a subject Lathander and Myrkul agree on, though the trials souls face are a point of discussion. The Church of Lathander zealously opposes unnatural interference, as is sometimes sought by dying rulers and nobles. The Church of Myrkul sells a form of deliverance in exchange for conversion. This sometimes causes people to successfully convert, but equally often they become false or faithless. This does not bother the Church, for all those souls pass to Myrkul.

[Arn]

Two year old thread necromancy! I remembered this old thread after discussing the Wall and the Old Order with another player. I decided to put up my latest findings from the Candlekeep forums.

TL;DR: My current understanding of the Old Order and the Wall is that Old Order monks are actually NOT Faithless.

I'm thinking there are three levels of devotion to the gods: 1) mere belief, 2) paying homage to and venerating the gods, and 3) outright worship. In support of this distinction, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 259, says that the Faithless denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods. This is the lowest level of devotion. Then the FRCS at page 290 says, "...most intelligent people worship more than one god, or at least pay homage to different gods when the circumstances are appropriate." This suggests that there is a distinction between paying homage and worship, which are the next two levels of devotion.

I'll discuss the three levels of devotion in more detail below:

1. Mere Belief/"Denying Faith"/Lip Service/Faithless
According to Ed Greenwood, no one in the Forgotten Realms denies faith in the sense of not believing in the existence of the gods. "It’s important NOT to think of the Realms in terms of real-world monotheism. Everyone in the Realms 'believes in' ALL the gods." (So Saith Ed, March 31, 2008). So monks of the Old Order DO at least believe in the gods and acknowledge their existence. Even the Faithless "believe in" the existence of the gods. But this "mere belief" is the same as lip service, and can land you in the Wall. FRCS, page 259 ("The Faithless firmly denied any faith or only gave lip service to the gods for most of their lives without truly believing").
For further guidance as to how mere belief/lip service equates with denial of faith, I give you the following from Ed Greenwood:

• The Wall of the Faithless and the False are for those who repudiate some or all of the gods, or seek to defy “the system” (usually because they have become insane) by denying that the gods and faith have any usefulness or validity at all - - or who assert that EVERYTHING mortals know about the gods is utterly wrong because the gods deceive mortals habitually, all the time, about all matters. It is more of a threat to living mortals than a popular, heavily-populated destination, and in the past the ranks of the tortured entities there have been raided by deities and mighty-in-magic individuals (such as certain archwizards, dragons, and others) for “raw materials” (sentiences) to empower new creature creations. Which is a topic I shouldn’t elaborate more on, just now.
  • -So Saith Ed, 8 Sept 2012

2. Paying Homage/Venerating the Gods/Having a Patron Deity
Again, the FRCS, page 290, suggests that there is a difference between paying homage to the gods and worshiping the gods: "...most intelligent people worship more than one god, or at least pay homage to different gods when the circumstances are appropriate."
I think that paying homage to the gods is enough to make you not-Faithless. Even if a monk of the Old Order does not pray to any deity, if he still lives his life in accordance with the values of a certain deity, it seems to me he might "feel a special attachment to one particular deity." (FRCS, page 290). In other words, a monk of the Old Order can have a patron deity without worshipping that deity. "A character's choice of a patron deity does not create any special obligation for that character. Choosing a patron merely indicates which deity happens to be the character’s personal favorite. A character's choice of a patron reflects the character's ambitions and self-image (most people want to be as much like their patron deity as possible for a mortal), and reflects the character's values." (FRCS, page 290). Since having a patron deity doesn't create any special obligation, and it "merely" indicates which deity is a character's personal favorite, it seems this is not the same as worship.
Even without a patron deity, a monk of the Old Order could still avoid the Wall of the Faithless after death, as the FRCS makes clear: "Even if a player has not chosen a patron deity for his character before the character meets her death, the player can choose one at the time of the character's death... Even if the character has never actively shown interest in any particular god, the way the character has been played usually will suggest a god." (FRCS, page 290).

3. Outright Worship
Examples of outright worship would be your clerics, paladins, blackguards, etc. "Only priests, paladins, would-be priests, and a few lay worshippers cleave to only one deity..." (So Saith Ed, March 31, 2008). Worship would also include praying to the various gods for blessings and favors. Again, worship is a deeper level of devotion than paying homage or having a patron deity; the FRCS says at page 290 that "most intelligent people worship more than one god" (as opposed to just paying homage to the gods), and "Choosing a patron merely indicates which deity happens to be the character’s personal favorite."

Maybe this three-tiered devotion system is inaccurate (although it seems to be the best way to reconcile the FRCS with Ed Greenwood's comments). Either way, the FRCS's Patron Deities section makes it clear that a monk of the Old Order is not automatically doomed to the Wall of the Faithless.