More Ranger combat styles?

[Calantyr]

Let me preface this by saying that I love Rangers, or at least the idea behind them. A mix between scouts, warriors, with a little magic thrown in. Unfortunately I never play them because it pretty much mandates that you must fight either with a ranged weapon or with two-weapon fighting. I prefer melee characters so that rules out the former, and I hate two-weapon fighting for thematic reasons so that rules out the latter. Would it be possible to open up the class so you are not restricted in this way?

I realise that making a two-handed or animal companion style might make the class overpowered due to stacking bonuses (Frenzied Berserker, Druid, etc), but how about other themes? The example below lays out something I would use in a heartbeat, even though it's value in combat is somewhat limited (it's more of an RP ability chain).

Survivalist Combat Style
The Survivalist spends a great deal of time seperated from civilisation. They must rely on their own fortitude and initiative to survive, and choose only the battles they can win. Unlike other Combat Styles the following abilities are retained when the Ranger wears Medium but not Heavy armor, although the Ranger gains no additional proficiencies.

2nd Level: The Ranger learns to rely on no one but themself when exploring the wilds, whether tracking down prey of healing their wounds. They gain Self Sufficient and/or Awareness as bonus feats.

6th Level: The Ranger learns to react to dangers almost before their senses can detect them, aiding them in both avoiding blows and detection. They gain Uncanny Dodge and/or Stealthy as bonus feats.

11th Level: The Ranger not only gains a sixth sense when it comes to attacking unseen foes, but their proficiency in healing wounds increases through experience. They gain Blind-Fight and/or Augmented Healing as bonus feats.

21st Level: The Ranger bolsters their mental fortitute just as much as their physical endurance. They gain both Iron Will and Indomitable Soul as bonus feats.

The Ranger can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than they otherwise would. They gain either Defensive Roll or Improved Evasion as a bonus feat. Oops, makes an easy step to Epic Dodge.

The Ranger becomes tougher overall (due to weaing slightly heavier armour, although they will need to spend a feat to aquire it), and some of the penalties are offset via the Stealthy feat. They lose fighting power over all, but they also become more well-rounded by being able to tackle different enemies (Blind-Fight, Uncanny Dodge). Better healing plays off the theme that Rangers are wise men of the woods who know poultices, etc. However they do NOT become more powerful when it comes to direct combat.

I don't think that's overpowered, but thoughts welcome.

[Thorsson]

Ra21/SD5 gets you Epic Dodge. Too many Elf Rangers as it is

[Calantyr]

Ra21/SD5 gets you Epic Dodge. Too many Elf Rangers as it is

Good point. Drop Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion, maybe gain Iron Will and Indomitable Soul instead? Handy for a class with a sucky base will save (even if you are encouraged to buff Wisdom). I don't think that's too powerful a combo for an Epic level ability (especially compared to Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting/One Shot). It even fits the Survivalist theme, hardening your self mentally to survive the wilds just as much as you do physically.

[Thorsson]

I'm all for increasing options. However all Ranger styles require the wearing of Light Armor. I think that should stay. Possibly the style could give LoH at level 2 and Armor Skin rather than Indomitable Soul at 21.

[Calantyr]

I'm all for increasing options. However all Ranger styles require the wearing of Light Armor. I think that should stay. Possibly the style could give LoH at level 2 and Armor Skin rather than Indomitable Soul at 21.

While I *love* more AC I don't think it fits what I'm aiming for. I feel that each combat style should add something unique to the others, and LoH/Armor Skin are feats that pretty much most melee builds take. But hey, I'm not wedded to their exclusion.

Just fingers crossed that something like this gets added. I'm itching to play a Ranger, but I don't want the key class ability to be useless.

[Thorsson]

Well Rangers make decent Ranged Attackers with the spells and decent Str-based TWFers. The reason I agree with you that there should be more styles is it would be nice if they could be played a different way; for me that would be Aragorn-like as they were back in the old days.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Kaedrins did make a 2handed style of ranger, didn't he?

[mrm3ntalist]

Kaedrins did make a 2handed style of ranger, didn't he?

Yes and it is considered too powerful for BG standards.

[Calantyr]

Kaedrins did make a 2handed style of ranger, didn't he?

Yes and it is considered too powerful for BG standards.

I'm all against power builds, that's why I'd like some new Combat Styles. Hell, I think the two-weapon fighting Combat Style is already overpowered.

[mrm3ntalist]

I'm all against power builds, that's why I'd like some new Combat Styles. Hell, I think the two-weapon fighting Combat Style is already overpowered.

In a high magic environment that would be true, because of all the extra damage you can have on both weapons.

On BG's setting however, the damage between a 2hander and a 2 weapon fighter is about the same. Bane of enemies might give a bit of an edge but it quickly goes aways against mobs with DR, which unfortunately there are plenty around.

Kaedrins 2handed fighting style has been turned down at least 3times now, because the QC agreed that it was too powerful for BG. However, feel free to suggest any other style that you have in mind and will be useful for whander rangers.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Do we have a link to the old discussion? Interested in reading the thoughts on the decision. I'm with a previous poster in that I'm enamored with the idea of an Aragorn style ranger, rocking the 2h weaponry.

If its because it stacks with FB? It could become an outlawed multi-class to prevent the op'ness.

[Calantyr]

I'm all against power builds, that's why I'd like some new Combat Styles. Hell, I think the two-weapon fighting Combat Style is already overpowered.

In a high magic environment that would be true, because of all the extra damage you can have on both weapons.

On BG's setting however, the damage between a 2hander and a 2 weapon fighter is about the same. Bane of enemies might give a bit of an edge but it quickly goes aways against mobs with DR, which unfortunately there are plenty around.

Kaedrins 2handed fighting style has been turned down at least 3times now, because the QC agreed that it was too powerful for BG. However, feel free to suggest any other style that you have in mind and will be useful for whander rangers.

Oh I completely agree with that sentiment. Kaedrin's 2-hander and animal companion builds are rather abuseable, which is why I argued against them. I quite like the style I posted in the first post of this thread, but I assume by 'whander ranger' you mean rangers that use one-handed weapons? Oops, I guess that was meant to be 2hander.

I guess I could make up something.

Single Weapon Combat Style
Unlike their more common Archer and Dual-Wielding brethren, the Single Weapon combat style seeks to both increase combat awareness and perfect fighting with a single melee weapon. It is a style that focuses on flexibility and defense rather than power, and thus is equally well-suited to those who use a one-handed weapon in either one or both hands, or a two-handed weapon in two. These abilities do not function when using a shield or dual-wielding, but objects such as torches may be held in the off-hand.

2nd Level: The Ranger learns to use every part of their weapon, be it the blade, pommel, or crossguard. When wielding a single weapon (in either one or two hands) it is considered to deal blunt, piercing, and bludgeoning damage, as though it possessed the extra melee damage ability for all three.
They also gain Torchfighting as a bonus feat.

6th Level: The Ranger learns to judge when best to attack and when to defend. They gain a unique form of Combat Expertise useable only when wielding a single weapon (in either one or two hands) that grants a +4 bonus to AC but suffers a -2 to attack rolls. This ability does not stack with regular Combat Expertise, but counts as that feat for the purposes of prerequisites.
They also gain Uncanny Dodge as a bonus feat.

11th Level: The Ranger perfects defensive swordplay. They gain a unique form of Improved Combat Expertise useable only when wielding a single weapon (in either one or two hands) that grants a +8 bonus to AC but suffers a -4 to attack rolls. This ability does not stack with regular Improved Combat Expertise, but counts as that feat for the purposes of prerequisites.
They also gain Blind-Fight as a bonus feat.

21st Level: The Ranger masters the art of single-weapon combat. They gain 15% Concealment when wielding a single weapon (in either one or two hands).
They also gain Armed Deflection as a bonus feat.

Edit: Made functional for both one-hander users and two-handers, for all those Aragorn fans.

I think this is balanced, but I made it up quick so I may be wrong.

You are unable to use Power Attack with half the abilities, so there should not be a problem with stacking damage. Also the abilities do not work with a shield, so there should not be a stacking AC problem either.

Of course this is geared far more towards defensive than the other two combat styles, which are hugely offensive.

[Deathgrowl]

Ra21/SD5 gets you Epic Dodge. Too many Elf Rangers as it is

How does this happen? Ranger never gets improved evasion, does it? And shadowdancer gets it at level 10.

[Calantyr]

Ra21/SD5 gets you Epic Dodge. Too many Elf Rangers as it is

How does this happen? Ranger never gets improved evasion, does it? And shadowdancer gets it at level 10.

I forgot that Epic Dodge was a thing when I included Improved Evasion in my suggested Combat Style in the first post. Obviously, that would have made the Combat Style pretty powerful.

[Deathgrowl]

Oh, I see.