Clairaudience/Clairvoyance

[mrm3ntalist]

Don't forget that the spell can only be used by one class, lasts 6 seconds per level, and that particular class can only normally cast around 5 or 6 1st level spells per rest, and will only ever know a maximum of 5 first level spells ever.

Those were not the issue. The +20 is.

[Boddynock]

This is not a low magic world. Saying it does not make it so. This has already been beaten to death, so I won't belabor the point. But this is not even close to a low magic world, neither is the real Faerun.

Allright. you dont like the low magic world. When, normally, the highest bonus is +4, what you consider a bonus 0f +20? From a lvl1 spell? That can be crafted on a wand?

This +1... In all iterations of D&D and D&D based games. The method to get around having a low DC caster was to take spells that only effected you, IE buffs, or were otherwise saveless. Amplify only has an effect on you and what you hear, therefore by even the PNP rules, you would get no save.

Will it be better if lets say amplify gives a +4 bonus as an effect on you and what you hear, therefore by even the PNP rules, you would get no save?

Normal highest bonus is +4? Greater magic weapon not only ups that but lasts hours. As does magic vestment.

The trade off has always been that amplify is very very useful in very select situations. It's not like you can keep it up constantly. You only use if it you are suspicious, or you spot a sneak and then they try to get away. No one is walking around with a permanent +20 listen... So I guess when you ask do I think that is justified...well clearly I do. Why isn't it justified to have a spell that helps you hear something only when you really need to, but not all the time? You want to make it a flat +10 listen, fine, make it one minute per level. You want to make it +5? Fine, make it an hour per level.

Point is, it wasn't broke before, why fix it. It is good that sneaks have some classes they actually have to be careful around. I play a few HIPSters, and the only class that pretty much has permanent insanely high detection skills is a druid. Bard and rangers can only find you if they get a hint there is something to find. What in the world is wrong with that?

[Boddynock]

Don't forget that the spell can only be used by one class, lasts 6 seconds per level, and that particular class can only normally cast around 5 or 6 1st level spells per rest, and will only ever know a maximum of 5 first level spells ever.

Those were not the issue. The +20 is.

That is part of the issue. It's all the same spell. That s how you balance things with a strong mechanical effect, make them rare, limited use, and short duration.

Edit: Wands? The caster level on the wands means it lasts 5 rounds... Fix wands caster level, then make amplify wands only work for bards. That was the solution for Holy Sword wasn't it? Not to nerf a far far more powerful spell than this one, just to limit its use?

[mrm3ntalist]

Don't forget that the spell can only be used by one class, lasts 6 seconds per level, and that particular class can only normally cast around 5 or 6 1st level spells per rest, and will only ever know a maximum of 5 first level spells ever.

Those were not the issue. The +20 is.

That is part of the issue. It's all the same spell. That s how you balance things with a strong mechanical effect, make them rare, limited use, and short duration.

Rare??? The can be crafted on wands... what you talk about?

EDIT: Do you want me to show you how powerful (for what it does - detect ) that spell is? The last time a player said that bards were weak i had to solo the balor naked. Maybe now i should use that same naked bard to detect every sneak build on the server.

[Boddynock]

Sorry, I edited my above post after you posted Mendel, not sure if you saw my blurb about wands...

Anywho, back in stride... I think the real issue with the detection/sneak debate is, and has been for some time, and most people would probably agree, is... This server has put sneaks into a position that no other class is in, in which it has to choose between having survivably decent AC and being good at it's (usually) class/build defining ability. Why are sneaks the only class that has to make the choice.

Give them their sneak gear back.

[mrm3ntalist]

Give them their sneak gear back.

* hugs *

Seriously though, i welcome any example where that amplify didnt need a change. If a spell did need a change that was it.

[Boddynock]

I did not say bards were weak, I said they had weaknesses which were easy to take advantage of. I am aware that the games AI isn't intelligent enough to do that. But sneak and detection don't really come into play much in anything but PC to PC interaction. I mean, silence is on a wand too right? You ever fought a silenced Chaos? She literally stands there and swings her staff.

We aren't talking about PVE and you know it, why bring it up?

And I have given example of why it doesn't need a change, you just disagreed with them, lol. That how these internet debates usually go right, all that sound and fury, signifying nothing, cause we are all too stubborn to change our minds. hehehe

[chad878262]

I think as a player of a sneak just about everyone has been meta-gamed where a group you are stalking/trying to listen to "hears" footsteps and uses their handy amplify wand. This is a defect within the engine, and shouldn't happen because players should keep themselves from using that meta information, but the simple truth is many don't. Either they don't realize it's an engine issue and meta-information or they don't care, but it happens, often. So unfortunately it's not a spell you use 'only when suspicious' IC, it is actually a spell that gets used when the engine grants meta-data that you shouldn't be privy to.

(I'm not saying you personally boddyknock, I've never seen you use meta-info at all, just speaking in terms of the fact that folks do use footsteps as a reason to then use amplify).

[Invoker]

a class that gets trumped by a single "Energy Immunity: Sonic" or getting caught in a silence without joyful noise already going. Let bards keep their strengths when their weaknesses are already so glaring and not going away. (And let's not mention that sonic immunity isn't breachable, and Bard's don't get mords without a PrC that has a significantly smaller cap than a real mords.)

I'm sorry...what?!

Energy Immunity is NOT ONLY breachable, but SUPER HIGH on the breach list of priorities...Carry a wand of lesser breach if you're worried about that. Moreover, it's not like a bard can't beat the crap out of people in melee...RROFL! So yeah...let's not mention it .

I read the spell, NWN2 isn't D&D, its based off it. How do you justify dragon druids? Or favored souls getting all of the cherry picked abilities they get. How do you justify truesight trumping an entire school of magic (illusion)? Bards are strong, I know, but bards are balanced by a huge weakness that is easy to take advantage of.

In PvE, bards are just as good as druids and FSs. In PvP, FSs and Druids also have weaknesses to exploit. We're talking about three top-tier classes here...

True Seeing trumping Illusion?!!? Err...that isn't the way it works in NWN2 mate...

I think you're too worried.

[Boddynock]

a class that gets trumped by a single "Energy Immunity: Sonic" or getting caught in a silence without joyful noise already going. Let bards keep their strengths when their weaknesses are already so glaring and not going away. (And let's not mention that sonic immunity isn't breachable, and Bard's don't get mords without a PrC that has a significantly smaller cap than a real mords.)

I'm sorry...what?!

Energy Immunity is NOT ONLY breachable, but SUPER HIGH on the breach list of priorities...Carry a wand of lesser breach if you're worried about that. Moreover, it's not like a bard can't beat the crap out of people in melee...RROFL! So yeah...let's not mention it .

I read the spell, NWN2 isn't D&D, its based off it. How do you justify dragon druids? Or favored souls getting all of the cherry picked abilities they get. How do you justify truesight trumping an entire school of magic (illusion)? Bards are strong, I know, but bards are balanced by a huge weakness that is easy to take advantage of.

In PvE, bards are just as good as druids and FSs. In PvP, FSs and Druids also have weaknesses to exploit. We're talking about three top-tier classes here...

True Seeing trumping Illusion?!!? Err...that isn't the way it works in NWN2 mate...

I think you're too worried.

I hate to be that guy, but energy immunity: Sonic, is not on the breach list. It counts a five different spells for that purpose, and only three of them are on it... Go ahead and give that a whirl next time your in game and see what I mean.

[Invoker]

I hate to be that guy, but energy immunity: Sonic, is not on the breach list. It counts a five different spells for that purpose, and only three of them are on it... Go ahead and give that a whirl next time your in game and see what I mean.

In the original game, those spells are not on the breach list, dot. However, on BGTSCC, Shadow Shield, Energy Immunity (all of them), Shades and several other spells have been added to the breach list.

I have been breached before, on all Energy Immunity spells I've used. If, for some reason and at some point in time, one went missing, or broke, it's just a matter of adding it: ask the QC or devs to look into it.

[AC81]

I'm going to jump in on the bards side here ... not that I care about +20 or what bonus it is but my question is : Why would this spell allow a save to someone when it only effects the caster? May as well decrease the bonus to 10 and up the duration. It doesn't seem right to allow a save versus this particular spell.

[Flasmix]

I vote for keep it as it was but remove it as scrolls and wands. If only a bard can use it, there's no big issue, right? As for Clairaudience/clairvoyance being changed... Why not simply just remove the save and you pick one, either spot or listen.

To say it's like pen and paper is just weird as the spell is completely different, lasts a minute per level and has no save. If we're trying to make it closer to pen and paper, I'd like this to be implemented. Up the duration from 6/seconds a level to 1/minute a level. It's what it is in Pen and Paper right?

EDIT: Won't this really screw over Assassins who took it? The spell is 100% pointless pretty much for an assassin to have Clairaudience/Clairvoyance. What sort of an Assassin focuses on spell DC's?

[Azure]

EDIT: Won't this really screw over Assassins who took it? The spell is 100% pointless pretty much for an assassin to have Clairaudience/Clairvoyance. What sort of an Assassin focuses on spell DC's?

Assassins don't get to choose spells, they just get a predetermined list of set ones(unless that too was changed).

I just tested the assassins version of Clairaudience/Clairvoyance and I don't see any difference from the previous version, except that you can target another character with it. The spot/listen bonus is +10 and it lasts around 45 - 50 seconds.

~Edit~: How exactly was this spell supposed to be different now? The other posts are a bit vague.

[Truthiness]

Sonic Immunity is actually left off of the breach list, along with another immunity that I don't quite recall.

As far as the changes to amplify/c&c, it might have been better to just make the bonus based off CL (1 listen per CL, capping at 20 for amplify, 1 spot/listen per 2 cl, capping at 10 for c&c), which would have greatly lessened the massive increase of amplify/c&c wands (+12 listen total with both) yet left 20+ cl bards the same.

In pnp, amplify ONLY has a save if you center it on a unwilling creature, you can still center it on yourself and it functions the same as it does in nwn2. Clairaudience/Clairvoyance is very different in pnp, there's no bonus to spot/listen, because it's basically a short range scry.