What did you do to us poor fighter builds ?

[Maximvs]

I think the best way to balance enemy dispel is to make their dispel power level average. A lvl 30 wizard shouldn't be easily dispelled, where as cheap spells should.

One great way to balance melee characters is to increase the time between rests, to force casters to use their spells sparingly while melee characters can go all out all the time.

[Snarfy]

The problem with every other NPC baddy being a dispeller isn't that they can dispell, it's that the AI are 100% metagamers. Even if the buff is invisible, like BUll's Str, they know you have it and try to dispell it.

This! For a perfect example of how the AI metagames, one need look no further than the coast south of CK. If your character has resistance to fire/energy in any way shape or form the fire beetles will not cast their fire spells on you. Walk through without any resistance and they will spam the hell out of their fire spells.

This being the case, I think simply lowering the number of mobs who can dispell overall would be the best compromise. Full CL casters are still harder to dispell than dip casters, but the dip casters/umd users don't have thier efforts reduced to utter uselessness because everything has a dispell.

I agree, but I wouldn't stop there. Whatever it is that enables the AI to metagame/be omniscient about a warded character needs to go, pronto. I would rather have the AI resort to dispelling situationally, and/or when they detect a character warding than the status-quo insta-dispel spam-fest that occurs now. It's completely aggravating.

In any case, IMO the proper way to move forward with these changes is not to revert to the old state, but make the environment such so that melee classes can handle it without relying heavily on UMD.

Absolutely. Up until this point I've been trying to play my level 25 melee character(Fighter/WM/Bodyguard) without heavy reliance on UMD, and it's been anything but a walk in the park. Being a greatsword wielder with Imp. CE, he usually hovers around 37 - 40 AC, and that's with medium to high end AC gear, and I can safely say that his ability to contend with some of the higher level content has reached a standstill. Even with the use of wands/consumables, he still gets facerolled pretty hard if I get careless in the Nashkel foothills or Mines. The introduction of the dispel "fix" (you'll notice I used quotes...) pretty much reduces his survivability to zero.

Now, the AI's propensity to metagame/auto-dispel is one thing. But the recent changes/updates don't increase the reliance on UMD, or even inspire players to rely on consumables for that matter. Quite the contrary, as now the dispel "fix"(there's those quotes again) in conjunction with cheating AI, risks effectively killing the market for wands, consumables, and equipment that grants buffs. I mean, what's the point of non-casters, UMD reliant characters, or low CL-casters buffing/using consumables at all if they're guaranteed to get screwed by the AI and stripped of their wards everywhere they go?

[Calodan]

In my opinion you aproach this incrrectly. You see making fighters better by using magic. I say make fighter better by making what they do more efficient.

Fair enough. Maybe a symptom of the world I play in?

[Deathgrowl]

The problem isn't that you're now suddenly easy to get dispelled. The problem is the amount of dispelling mobs on the server.

Dispelling is supposed to work this way!

Besides, I've leveled up several fighter-esque character with full UMD and only really bothered to use Heroism scrolls and the occasional mirror image or displacement. Just use it after the dispel hits you. Usually comes at the start of the fight anyways. I don't see where the complaining is coming from at all in that regard. Even on my rogue/shadowdancer, I'm usually only using heroism and the occasional spider skin. Reapply! They're not exactly expensive!

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Now, there was also some complaining about splitting the lore skill up into categories and how that favours casters over others. How are you reasoning this? It's most certainly not favouring clerics, sorcerers, favoured souls, druids or spirit shamans. I wouldn't even say it's favouring wizards, despite the obvious more skill points.

What is the objection here, actually? That you can't fill out all of them? Well, a wizard won't be able to either without sacrificing a lot of other skills.

Is it that now you can't fill out just one skill and be an expert in everything? Well, how would that even make sense in the first place? All this means is that you can actually specialise now. I really, really, really don't understand the objection. They're mostly RP skills anyways (apart from being requirements to some classes).

Do you think wizards and bards will somehow have more RP possibilities because of this? As if they didn't have huge lore before? Is it that non-wizards and non-bards will have fewer RP possibilities because of this? Because that's just false.

Splitting up the lore skill into categories is a good thing.

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The only thing that worries me about non-caster combat now is the new penalty system. The ranged cover thing, for instance, giving you a huge decrease in AB. That's not cool. Especially in a game where movement is so absolutely agonising already. This just overcomplicates the combat.

[CommanderKrieg]

With the emphasis on teamwork and groups, is there any possibility on raising the group max? With Wizards using their spell slots to ward a fighter and ward themselves, they should get something like 4 offensive spells at lower levels, sometimes even less. This effectively makes them deadweight with a crossbow in many groups.

I understand that much of this is to encourage reliance on eachother, but we are still limited by 6 people max before huge XP declines.

[mrm3ntalist]

What is the objection here, actually? That you can't fill out all of them? Well, a wizard won't be able to either without sacrificing a lot of other skills.

There is no objection. Just stating that it is yet another change that will favor the characters that can split the most points into as many lore categories as possible. And then use their spells to buff them. Which builds are those? Is that the average fighter? No. It is wizards and bards for instance.

[Theodore01]

The only thing that worries me about non-caster combat now is the new penalty system.

Wait what is that ? How is it supposed to work?
Whats the point of all the maluses ?
Please explain it to all the unknowing players here?

[Invoker]

Yes. My already very powerful wizard has been rebalanced to "Godmode Enabled".

I suppose I can always test this theory.

Whenever you're not too busy running away from me

*beckons Pun-Pun aka The Avatar of Destruction*

*has WIS 8, so yeah...*

[CptAmyrica]

The only thing that worries me about non-caster combat now is the new penalty system. The ranged cover thing, for instance, giving you a huge decrease in AB. That's not cool. Especially in a game where movement is so absolutely agonising already. This just overcomplicates the combat.

Yeah, this is a 10-year-old game with notoriously shoddy walkmeshing and an engine that can't always accurately tell when you're flanking. The cover/obstruction system is not adding value to combat mechanics.

[maulofthetitans55]

Definitely some questionable balance decisions to say the least.... For instance my 30 wizard can almost fill his entire spellbook with brand new useful spells, meanwhile melee get a couple useless feats. Casters were already in an amazing spot and now the gap is even greater.

Far too much was released at once. You went from adding almost nothing for two years to adding so much at once you can't possibly fix all the bugs. Find a happy medium, starting with enchanting, a feature that's many years overdue.

Also my AB seems to fluctuate completely at random in combat, anyone know what that's about?

[Bobthehero]

Play a fighter, don't crutch on UMD? Its a thing and it worked decently well for me. Now I get to deny some AC to people and possibly stun e'm, with nothing to dispel me, its going somewhere.

[RagingPeace]

Perhaps we should all consider giving the changes some time, potentially it isn't going to be as awful as y'all are making it seem. Give them some time to balance it.

I've mostly played non-casters, and my biggest issue has always been affording healing kits and cure potions.

[thids]

Besides, I've leveled up several fighter-esque character with full UMD and only really bothered to use Heroism scrolls and the occasional mirror image or displacement. Just use it after the dispel hits you. Usually comes at the start of the fight anyways. I don't see where the complaining is coming from at all in that regard. Even on my rogue/shadowdancer, I'm usually only using heroism and the occasional spider skin. Reapply! They're not exactly expensive!

Was any one of your fighter characters not heavily focused on AC? And if not, how did you do in the mid epics? From my experiences so far, as soon as I hit ~21 on a fighter type who isn't focusing on AC it's either "HELLO FIVE WANDS, YOU ARE MY BEST FRIENDS NOW!" or I have to find a group (which I don't mind, but sometimes there are none around).

[Deathgrowl]

Also my AB seems to fluctuate completely at random in combat, anyone know what that's about?

It's what I mentioned above:

The only thing that worries me about non-caster combat now is the new penalty system. The ranged cover thing, for instance, giving you a huge decrease in AB. That's not cool. Especially in a game where movement is so absolutely agonising already. This just overcomplicates the combat.

Was any one of your fighter characters not heavily focused on AC? And if not, how did you do in the mid epics? From my experiences so far, as soon as I hit ~21 on a fighter type who isn't focusing on AC it's either "HELLO FIVE WANDS, YOU ARE MY BEST FRIENDS NOW!" or I have to find a group (which I don't mind, but sometimes there are none around).

Was fine. ~45 AC with a tower shield is easy to achieve in mid epics even when not heavily focusing on AC. Most of the time I went for twohanding anyways.

Sure, you'll lose some HP. Bring some heal kits. They're cheap and you usually will have the strength to carry them.

Anyways, if this encourages finding groups, all the better.

[RagingPeace]

Also my AB seems to fluctuate completely at random in combat, anyone know what that's about?

It's what I mentioned above:

The only thing that worries me about non-caster combat now is the new penalty system. The ranged cover thing, for instance, giving you a huge decrease in AB. That's not cool. Especially in a game where movement is so absolutely agonising already. This just overcomplicates the combat.

Was any one of your fighter characters not heavily focused on AC? And if not, how did you do in the mid epics? From my experiences so far, as soon as I hit ~21 on a fighter type who isn't focusing on AC it's either "HELLO FIVE WANDS, YOU ARE MY BEST FRIENDS NOW!" or I have to find a group (which I don't mind, but sometimes there are none around).

Was fine. ~45 AC with a tower shield is easy to achieve in mid epics even when not heavily focusing on AC. Most of the time I went for twohanding anyways.

Sure, you'll lose some HP. Bring some heal kits. They're cheap and you usually will have the strength to carry them.

Anyways, if this encourages finding groups, all the better.

None of my melee builds have ever had 45 AC without serious buffing from casters o.o Actually I think I've always been below 40