Incoming Update

[Bobthehero]

I party all the time

[Akulakha]

The best I've seen is when DM's make a boss immune to physical damage, you really feel appreciated as a fighter guy when that happens.

How about when the DM makes the boss immune to all save vs death spells and then give it so much HP that the caster is just wasting spells if he's going to try damaging it?

Or just has 50 spell resistance. That also works.

I've had both.

Stop making it sound like fighters are suffering. They're not. They're fine. They have a never-ending supply of damage and serve a different role in the party compared to the caster.

Also, stop trying to justify things on whether or not you can solo with this or that build. It's not useful to anyone. Try partying instead.

Thank you!

[mrm3ntalist]

I've been able to use search, listen, spot, sense motive, lore, perform, tumble, heal, and other skills with my pure melee characters in several events. If you don't use your skills, that's on you. Don't take it out on the wizards and bards who do use theirs.

Stop making it sound like fighters are suffering. They're not. They're fine. They have a never-ending supply of damage and serve a different role in the party compared to the caster.

Based on what you said, everything is fine regarding the current state of meleers? Which server are you playing on? Do you know why content is updated?

[Ivan38Rus]

Playing only casters can bend one's vision in an interesting way.

[mrm3ntalist]

I will draw a map, to illustrate where we are and how we got here. I need to say that we are blessed to have excellent and tireless ( ) developers so what is said below is not directed at them. If anything this goes for the sorry state QC is in.

Since I begun playing here, there were many updates whose purpose is to renew the interest of the game. For classes that is implemented by giving new abilities, feats spells etc.

Since then caster got:
- Counterspell, an ability that allows casters to solo bosses by deflecting mords.
- Many PRCs, that improved casters not only in new abilities but power as well. To name a few:
Blood Magus - The most power PRC for casters. There is no other PRCs that improves a base class the way BM does. New abilities ( awaken, bloodtravel ) +2CON, +fort saves, 6hp, Extra CL, blood draughts, scars. If a caster had a dream about a caster PRC, he wouldnt dream close to this.
Archmage - The PRCs true power will be felt more with the PSC fix. Spellpower for extra CL and many arcana abilities that give new options for casters. More importantly it gives a much needed breathing room for sorcerers and their spell selection
Hierophant - A PRC that gives a boost in power and adds more options for caster and turner clerics.
Shadow Adept - because BM wasnt powerful enough we added one more for sky high DCs. Their disadvantage, mainly the -4CL on transmutation ( and evocation ), we made a spell to remedy for that ( abyssal might - abjuration )
The list goes on: Master Alchemist, Techsmith of Gond, Silverstar, Thaumaturge, ...
- New spells: This is a neverending process. Even though it is welcome, we dont need to hide the fact that renews the itnerest in playing casters and gives tehm new abilities.
To name a few :
Sending - the only way to get in contact IC with another character.
Teleport - Because we dont travel from BG to Beregost fast enough on foot, we added Teleport as well.
Scrying, Disguise spells, enchantment...

What meleers got during that time?
Bear warrior - Do i need to say more?
OOBI - Everyone takes advantage of the free rcrs to get rid of that PRC
Man-at-arms: the only half decent PRC
Dwarven Battlerager - yeah right...

What they also got? They got their stealth gear taken away while at the same time when it is asked, supported by numbers to reduce an unfair and ridiculus bonus of amplify everyone screams "pnp pnp pnp"

They also got items with 10/- magic DR. Because gods, lets not make meleers able to defend against one spell that inexperienced wizard players use as their signature spell. At the same time 10dr of elec/acid/fire exist normaly just enough to defend against the elemental damage of meleers

Adamantine weapons...

- Feats: Meleers dont need extra feats... the cannot fit them all in... they are not spells. The combat focus feats, the charge line of feats, the shield bashing feats are all fine, but they cannot fit in most feat starved builds. At best, subpar builds should be given those feats for free at high enough levels.

- The dispel fix: The only types of builds that affects that much ( rightly or not ) are meleers. It affects them so much that there is talk to balance the envoroment.

And finally... Epic Shops... Its fine for a caster to buy the common Viper ( +2EB, +1d4acid +1vamp regen ) and cast GMW on it but a meleer shound NEVER be able to buy the epic version.

Whoever says that meleers are fine, are so far from the truth that they need freakin binoculars to see it

Since I begun playing here, there were many updates whose purpose is to renew the interest of the game. For classes that is implemented by giving new abilities, feats spells etc.

New updates never renew interest in the game. Only good RP can.

And when we argue with facts, we got types like hitman who live in their own dream world and talk generic about shit.

Hey, hitman, we talk mechanics here.. if you dont like them, there is nothing for you to see here...

[Grimdark Hitman]

Since I begun playing here, there were many updates whose purpose is to renew the interest of the game. For classes that is implemented by giving new abilities, feats spells etc.

New updates never renew interest in the game. Only good RP can. If I live in my own dream-world, that just means I am immersed.

[Karond]

Shadow Adept - because BM wasnt powerful enough we added one more for sky high DCs. Their disadvantage, mainly the -4DC on transmuteation ( and evocation ) CL, we made a spell to remedy for that ( abyssal might abjuration )

It's +3 ability now.


Hopefully there will be some changes coming up, like lowering requirements for some melee feats and maybe even lowering requirements for some classes. It would be nice to see battlerager without the rage requirement, or at least having frenzy as a substitute, but that's more a status of the barbarian than anything else. We could use some non-casting improvements that goes beyond new feats. Particularly classes like barbarian, swashbuckler, man-at-arms, duelists, bear warrior, cavestalker, ghost-faced killer, order of the bow initiate and wilderness stalker could use something to at least make them stand out in a noteworthy way.

[mrm3ntalist]

Shadow Adept - because BM wasnt powerful enough we added one more for sky high DCs. Their disadvantage, mainly the -4DC on transmuteation ( and evocation ) CL, we made a spell to remedy for that ( abyssal might abjuration )

It's +3 ability now

You mean abyssal might? Yes i know. It can be used and build around it to avid the now dispelable (For SAs ) transmutation bears, cats, bulls. I already use that spell in my shadow adept.

Hopefully there will be some changes coming up, like lowering requirements for some melee feats and maybe even lowering requirements for some classes. It would be nice to see battlerager without the rage requirement, or at least having frenzy as a substitute, but that's more a status of the barbarian than anything else. We could use some non-casting improvements that goes beyond new feats. Particularly classes like barbarian, swashbuckler, man-at-arms, duelists, bear warrior, cavestalker, ghost-faced killer, order of the bow initiate and wilderness stalker could use something to at least make them stand out in a noteworthy way.

Karond I am not arguing that. We know very well what needs to be done - in future. But having players ( especially QCers ) saying that meleers are fine... Then dont know what melee means

[Deathgrowl]

Based on what you said, everything is fine regarding the current state of meleers? Which server are you playing on? Do you know why content is updated?

No. Everything isn't fine with meleers. The new system that adds weird penalties to AB is a problem and has to go.

Other than that? Yeah. Fine. Maybe they need some more love as far as PRCs and feats go. When I'm building melee characters, I don't really ever feel like I'm missing anything. There's no PRC we don't have I can think of that would expand my builds' RP viability or mechanically. Except dragon disciple, perhaps, but lets not open that can of worms.

The problem is that you're comparing hammers to screwdrivers. They have different roles.

Playing only casters can bend one's vision in an interesting way.

No doubt. I don't though.

[chad878262]

The problem is that you're comparing hammers to screwdrivers. They have different roles.

More like comparing a Nuclear Weapon to a Knife... yes, the knife can be reused, but the Nuke only needs one use, right?

Sorry DG, Melee based PC's are not 'fine'. Simple fact is that Casters can go anywhere while melee PC's that go fight Chaos are going to die as often as not, even at level 30. This is true of many of the end game bosses. When the vast majority of content cannot be seen by melee players (even in a group) unless they can find a mage or maybe favored soul to essentially protect them there is something that needs to be addressed.

Not that this is an issue since the vast majority of the server is Favored Souls, Mages and Bards anyway, but maybe if Melee was truly viable there would be more of them?

[Deathgrowl]

More like comparing a Nuclear Weapon to a Knife... yes, the knife can be reused, but the Nuke only needs one use, right?

This analogy would only work if a wizard can cast one spell and an entire dungeoun would be annihilated without any chance of survival.

To people who don't have a lot of experience with wizards: This is not the case. Mobs are far too scattered for AOE spells to wipe them out fast, they have too much HP to blast down one by one for more than three or four mobs and they generally have too high saves for save vs death spells to be reliable unless you REALLY build for it (+2 int race + epic spell focus + blood magus/archmage).

If you want to compare it like that, it's comparing a grenade to a knife. Sure, the grenade can take out several in one go, but once you're out, you're out.

Simple fact is that Casters can go anywhere

Going somewhere doesn't achieve anything. At all. It just means they're there. They still cannot kill most bosses and they can't kill a lot of mobs before running out of spells.

while melee PC's that go fight Chaos are going to die as often as not, even at level 30.

And this just isn't a fact. Killing Chaos is easy with a melee character provided you have a bit of damage. Chaos doesn't have a lot of hitpoints

This is true of many of the end game bosses.

Good! Bosses shouldn't be soloable by anyone of their respective CR! What we need to do now is to make the Frost Giant king and Wyrmthrax harder to solo for a mage. Other than that, it's all good. You can't solo anything else of high CR as a mage. I've tried. Several times.

If I'm wrong, please show me how you do it. The balor, for instance. Or the dracolich. PLEASE, show me how a wizard can solo the dracolich without being a gish. And don't just assert it. Show me with details how it is done.

And that still doesn't explain how the wizard got there all on its own without wasting all its spells.

Bosses shouldn't be soloable.

When the vast majority of content cannot be seen by melee players (even in a group) unless they can find a mage or maybe favored soul to essentially protect them there is something that needs to be addressed.

What, exactly can you not see? Your ranger can probably still comfortably take out frost giants and fire giants one-on-one, and perhaps even one-on-two.

I'm not saying mages have it bad right now. They don't. Mages are fine. But so are meleers. It's about roles. People need to start thinking parties in a multiplayer game.

[mrm3ntalist]

To people who don't have a lot of experience with wizards: This is not the case. Mobs are far too scattered for AOE spells to wipe them out fast, they have too much HP to blast down one by one for more than three or four mobs and they generally have too high saves for save vs death spells to be reliable unless you REALLY build for it (+2 int race + epic spell focus + blood magus/archmage).

Just because you dont know how to do it, it doesnt mean that it cannot be done.

- Empowered wall of fire and watch them burn.
- Sunburst or mass blindness deafness and have your summon - any summon bash them
- Dominate one of them.

These are all non archmage/BM/SA tips. If you build around those builds, it only takes a spell to kil lthem all... Like

one spell and an entire dungeoun would be annihilated without any chance of survival.

[Deathgrowl]

To people who don't have a lot of experience with wizards: This is not the case. Mobs are far too scattered for AOE spells to wipe them out fast, they have too much HP to blast down one by one for more than three or four mobs and they generally have too high saves for save vs death spells to be reliable unless you REALLY build for it (+2 int race + epic spell focus + blood magus/archmage).

Just because you dont know how to do it, it doesnt mean that it cannot be done.

- Empowered wall of fire and watch them burn.
- Sunburst or mass blindness deafness and have your summon - any summon bash them
- Dominate one of them.

These are all non archmage/BM/SA tips. If you build around those builds, it only takes a spell to kil lthem all... Like

one spell and an entire dungeoun would be annihilated without any chance of survival.

Show me. I want to see it done. You're just asserting.

[mrm3ntalist]

To people who don't have a lot of experience with wizards: This is not the case. Mobs are far too scattered for AOE spells to wipe them out fast, they have too much HP to blast down one by one for more than three or four mobs and they generally have too high saves for save vs death spells to be reliable unless you REALLY build for it (+2 int race + epic spell focus + blood magus/archmage).

Just because you dont know how to do it, it doesnt mean that it cannot be done.

- Empowered wall of fire and watch them burn.
- Sunburst or mass blindness deafness and have your summon - any summon bash them
- Dominate one of them.

These are all non archmage/BM/SA tips. If you build around those builds, it only takes a spell to kil lthem all... Like

one spell and an entire dungeoun would be annihilated without any chance of survival.

Show me. I want to see it done. You're just asserting.

I do it daily... i wil lbe glad to show you. Right now, one of my casters can clear the frost keep ( kill everything, take all the loot ) in less than 5 mins, got to the Lizard cave, kill everything, then go back to the keep and kill the king without running out of spells.

I try to find the correct spellbook, in order to do the same in the vault. That is a challenge!

[Deathgrowl]

I do it daily... i wil lbe glad to show you. Right now, one of my casters can clear the frost keep ( kill everything, take all the loot ) in less than 5 mins, got to the Lizard cave, kill everything, then go back to the keep and kill the king without running out of spells.

That's doable. Not in 5 minutes, but I'll let that slide. Do the vault including the dracolich and the gray peaks including the balor. And the yuan'ti temple + boss. And your assertion was that you can do this without archmage/bm/sa. So prove it.